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Nautilus
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 20, 2009 6:15 pm

Rosalind wrote:
Im implying that someone outside of our scope of time should be able to work quicker, and if he made a mistake surely that betrays the notion of the principles of his existence? And if there are contradictions and hypocrisy amongst every religion I've encountered, how does that reflect on the notion of a divine being?

I cannot disprove his existence any more than you can prove it. The end answer is which result is the most self-gratifying, blind faith or denial?

Like I said, read that 'Dragon in the Garage' story.

Evolution is not searching for perfection. Also, considering he's eternal, millions of years might well be nothing in time.
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 20, 2009 6:17 pm

As for 'mistakes' and 'contradictions' in the Bible, do you have any idea how many translations the Bible has undergone through history? There are bound to be several clerical errors and things that have been 'lost in translation'.
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 20, 2009 6:20 pm

EX 21:23-25, LE 24:20, DT 19:21 A life for a life, an eye for an eye, etc.
MT 5:38-44, LK 6:27-29 Turn the other cheek. Love your enemies

Oh god, I hear this one all the time, it's extremely taken out of context. Hammurabi's law at the time was indeed life for a life and so on. That was a law created by man. However, Jesus said that they should not follow those laws. Fuck, I don't even know the Bible that well but this is ridiculous.
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 20, 2009 6:21 pm

"If god created the universe, who created God"

Both are beyond our comprehension, and I don't claim to know the answer to who created either, but believe in Occams Razor.

Pertaining to bible contradictions: You win. The bible is grossly inaccurate and shouldn't be seen as proof either way. That's more my disapproval in religion than any divine being.
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 20, 2009 6:22 pm

Ziegenbartami wrote:
As for 'mistakes' and 'contradictions' in the Bible, do you have any idea how many translations the Bible has undergone through history? There are bound to be several clerical errors and things that have been 'lost in translation'.

Seriously. So there's a huge contradiction in that one book says "Truly this was the son of God" and "Truly this man was the son of God?" You've got to be fucking kidding me.
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 20, 2009 6:24 pm

Rosalind wrote:
"If god created the universe, who created God"

Both are beyond our comprehension, and I don't claim to know the answer to who created either, but believe in Occams Razor.
We've now moved outside the realm of religion and into the realm of metaphysics--the 'unmoved mover' or the 'uncaused cause'. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 20, 2009 6:25 pm

Rosalind wrote:
"If god created the universe, who created God"

Both are beyond our comprehension, and I don't claim to know the answer to who created either, but believe in Occams Razor.

Pertaining to bible contradictions: You win. The bible is grossly inaccurate and shouldn't be seen as proof either way. That's more my disapproval in religion than any divine being.

And I won't argue with you there, I certainly agree. Keep in mind that even back in the Old Testament days some nasty scribes might have changed it to suit their own needs. The Council of Nicea certainly did when the "official" Bible was published.

Remember though, the most scientifically valid course of action is agnosticism. There's no definitive proof either way, so nobody can make a definite statement.
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 20, 2009 6:29 pm

Nautilus wrote:
Rosalind wrote:
"If god created the universe, who created God"

Both are beyond our comprehension, and I don't claim to know the answer to who created either, but believe in Occams Razor.

Pertaining to bible contradictions: You win. The bible is grossly inaccurate and shouldn't be seen as proof either way. That's more my disapproval in religion than any divine being.

And I won't argue with you there, I certainly agree. Keep in mind that even back in the Old Testament days some nasty scribes might have changed it to suit their own needs. The Council of Nicea certainly did when the "official" Bible was published.

Remember though, the most scientifically valid course of action is agnosticism. There's no definitive proof either way, so nobody can make a definite statement.

I have an invisible dragon that breathes heatless fire and cannot be touched by matter napping in my bathroom. PROVE ME WRONG!
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Rosalind
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 20, 2009 6:30 pm

Ziegenbartami wrote:
Rosalind wrote:
"If god created the universe, who created God"

Both are beyond our comprehension, and I don't claim to know the answer to who created either, but believe in Occams Razor.
We've now moved outside the realm of religion and into the realm of metaphysics--the 'unmoved mover' or the 'uncaused cause'. Razz

Your watchmaker argument spurred that one Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 20, 2009 7:04 pm

He doesn't exist for me. That's all I care.
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Rosalind
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 20, 2009 7:07 pm

LegionOvDoom wrote:
He doesn't exist for me. That's all I care.

She broke up with you? Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 20, 2009 7:12 pm

Rosalind wrote:
Nautilus wrote:
Rosalind wrote:
"If god created the universe, who created God"

Both are beyond our comprehension, and I don't claim to know the answer to who created either, but believe in Occams Razor.

Pertaining to bible contradictions: You win. The bible is grossly inaccurate and shouldn't be seen as proof either way. That's more my disapproval in religion than any divine being.

And I won't argue with you there, I certainly agree. Keep in mind that even back in the Old Testament days some nasty scribes might have changed it to suit their own needs. The Council of Nicea certainly did when the "official" Bible was published.

Remember though, the most scientifically valid course of action is agnosticism. There's no definitive proof either way, so nobody can make a definite statement.

I have an invisible dragon that breathes heatless fire and cannot be touched by matter napping in my bathroom. PROVE ME WRONG!

That's not the point I was making. The point I was making is that just because most Christians are hypocritical, doesn't mean that God automatically doesn't exist.
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Ziegenbartami
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 20, 2009 7:15 pm

Nautilus wrote:
Rosalind wrote:
Nautilus wrote:
Rosalind wrote:
"If god created the universe, who created God"

Both are beyond our comprehension, and I don't claim to know the answer to who created either, but believe in Occams Razor.

Pertaining to bible contradictions: You win. The bible is grossly inaccurate and shouldn't be seen as proof either way. That's more my disapproval in religion than any divine being.

And I won't argue with you there, I certainly agree. Keep in mind that even back in the Old Testament days some nasty scribes might have changed it to suit their own needs. The Council of Nicea certainly did when the "official" Bible was published.

Remember though, the most scientifically valid course of action is agnosticism. There's no definitive proof either way, so nobody can make a definite statement.

I have an invisible dragon that breathes heatless fire and cannot be touched by matter napping in my bathroom. PROVE ME WRONG!

That's not the point I was making. The point I was making is that just because most Christians are hypocritical, doesn't mean that God automatically doesn't exist.
Thomas isn't arguing that Christians are hypocritical per se, just that some attempt to 'prove' God's existence using fallacious arguments/rhetoric.
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 20, 2009 7:20 pm

Well it's impossible to, and there's really not a point to.
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 20, 2009 7:22 pm

Close, im arguing christians are hypocritical but since they didn't come up with idea of God become irrelevant in the argument.

The dragon argument is a challenge directed at anyone who believes in his existence.
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 20, 2009 7:40 pm

I can fap The Chasm harder than Yahweh. Therefore, I am beyond the Judeo-Christian God(s).
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 20, 2009 7:46 pm

Why is this debate only focusing on the Christian perception of god? A large number of the world's smartest men believed in the Hermetic perception of god. Da Vinci, Newton, Paracelsus, Jung, Jules Violle, and even Einstein had interest in alchemy which is based around a specific cosmology, which includes a universal consciousness functioning in a godlike capacity. All of these men pretty much single-handedly changed the world of science while believing in a force superior to all. So, why is it so hard for modern men of science to resolve faith with their craft?
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 21, 2009 5:11 am

You know I have to make a statement here Razz

Thomas: I`m sick as hell of your Occam`s Razor. That has become such a cliché that it doesn`t mean anything anymore. Occam`s Razor has no effect onreligion since religion has a very real and important purpose in modern society: keeping order. See, as much as religion drives people to bad deeds it also gives a reason for NOT commiting crime and obeying the law. It motivates empirical law as there are consequences which we cannot escape, not even if no-one sees us. Therefore your argument loses.

Religion also gives another very real input to modern civilization: hope. Without the solice of knowing that something greater than yourself is in control and knowing that all has a purpose, many simply won`t have the motivation to get out of bed in the morning. Even your no nonsense secular approach to religion cannot escape the inevitible advantages it yields.

Additionally if I ponder the universe, the very nature of existance, I always get back to the same unanswerable question: the universe exists - that we know. If there were no cause, there would be no consequence. Therefore: if there were no God, there would be no universe. Why do we exist, then?
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 21, 2009 8:26 am

The simple answer is I don't know and neither do any of you. It's downright impossible to prove, therefore no one knows.
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 21, 2009 8:36 am

Christoff Odendaal wrote:
You know I have to make a statement here Razz

Quote :
Thomas: I`m sick as hell of your Occam`s Razor. That has become such a cliché that it doesn`t mean anything anymore. Occam`s Razor has no effect onreligion since religion has a very real and important purpose in modern society: keeping order. See, as much as religion drives people to bad deeds it also gives a reason for NOT commiting crime and obeying the law. It motivates empirical law as there are consequences which we cannot escape, not even if no-one sees us. Therefore your argument loses.

So do you actually believe that with out an invisible man in the sky that we would all be offing each other left and right? Come on. Doesn't seem to work for radical Muslims does it? In fact they made sure to write in their book that it was not only OK, but doing it will get you pussy in the after life. But you are right it is meant to keep people in order, as in control. Not a moral control, but as a means to rule. Nothing more. If you need a great story and an invisible man to do the right thing in life then you need help. I don't kill because it is wrong, I will face jail time for it, and possibly death. The guilt I will feel is the consequence I will feel that no one will see. All this with out god. If I was not to feel guilt then my problems go far beyond religious ones. Despite what you and other christians believe, man is not all together evil and in need of saving.

Quote :
Religion also gives another very real input to modern civilization: hope. Without the solice of knowing that something greater than yourself is in control and knowing that all has a purpose, many simply won`t have the motivation to get out of bed in the morning. Even your no nonsense secular approach to religion cannot escape the inevitible advantages it yields.

Hope to who? To the ones that believe what you believe right? I will assume you are not a Muslim or a Jew (if I am wrong I apologize in advance). So you have hope because you believe you are right and will go to heaven. What about those who don't believe what you believe. They will burn in hell right? Not much hope there. Unless of course if they are right and you are wrong. Then it is you that will lose hope. Of course by then it will be too late. I hope there is a god for nothing more than the fact that I don't want to die. I do not wish for my existence to cease. This is why man has constructed a god, and a religion to go with it. We as humans are scared of our own mortality and find it hard to wrap our brains around the fact of non-existence. So religion and a belief in an after life gives them a sense of peace and a feeling of happiness. Of course the other side of this is it also creates a lot of people with a "can't wait to die mentality". They don't bother with environmental issues because "god" will take care of it. It also breeds a nation of christian that say they love Israel and think they should have it's own country including what the Palestinian's have. But the dirty little secret is that they do not feel this way because it is right. No, they think this way because if the Jew's get that land back and build the temple, their "lord" comes back and takes them to heaven. While every person of Jewish faith burns in hell for all eternity. See the advantages that believing the right "god" can have.

Quote :
Additionally if I ponder the universe, the very nature of existance, I always get back to the same unanswerable question: the universe exists - that we know. If there were no cause, there would be no consequence. Therefore: if there were no God, there would be no universe. Why do we exist, then?

Why of there was no god would there be no universe? Could the big bang theory not be right? That would explain our universe and disprove you god. Remember this. What you have is faith, not fact. As your fellow christians in this thread have already said. The book upon which your entire faith is based on, is full of mistakes. More proof that it is not fact. God is nothing more than a man made construct done so to keep men in control and to help find solace in our own mortality.
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 21, 2009 8:44 am

Why the hell is everyone so focused on Christ?

If by 'God' you refer to some higher order that explains existence, hell yes I believe, because the only other explanation for things like involves an infinite number of parallel universes, which happens to hold the exact same problem as a 'creator' (read: no proof).

But is Jesus God? Fuck no. Not anymore then Buddha, Lao Tzu, or Zoroaster was.
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 21, 2009 8:48 am

Most scientists will readily admit that while the Big Bang is an explanation for the creation of the universe they have no way to explain how the Big Bang came about.
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 21, 2009 8:54 am

Quote :
So do you actually believe that with out an invisible man in the sky that we would all be offing each other left and right? Come on. Doesn't seem to work for radical Muslims does it? In fact they made sure to write in their book that it was not only OK, but doing it will get you pussy in the after life. But you are right it is meant to keep people in order, as in control. Not a moral control, but as a means to rule. Nothing more. If you need a great story and an invisible man to do the right thing in life then you need help. I don't kill because it is wrong, I will face jail time for it, and possibly death. The guilt I will feel is the consequence I will feel that no one will see. All this with out god. If I was not to feel guilt then my problems go far beyond religious ones. Despite what you and other christians believe, man is not all together evil and in need of saving.

You can make this statement without bashing a couple of gargantuan cultures with huge cliches by simply bringing up the willingness of humanity to co-exist shown by the idea of a social contract (aka, don't be a dick to me, and I won't be a dick to you). Just saying. javascript:emoticonp('Razz')

Oh, and whoever was talking about hope: try not getting out of bed for a week. Provided nobody starts feeding you, your ass will get out of bed. I'm not saying that apathy can't lead to letting people waste away without trying to help themselves, but a faith in God sure doesn't prevent that. Colonial America and dozens of POW camps stand as proof to this.

Quote :
Why of there was no god would there be no universe? Could the big bang theory not be right? That would explain our universe and disprove you god. Remember this. What you have is faith, not fact. As your fellow christians in this thread have already said. The book upon which your entire faith is based on, is full of mistakes. More proof that it is not fact. God is nothing more than a man made construct done so to keep men in control and to help find solace in our own mortality.

Why is it possible for the big bang theory to be correct with no proof, and it is impossible for the creation theory to be correct with no proof? Because one makes more 'sense'? That's just a culture thing, it used to make a lot of sense that God created everything, so perhaps perspective is in order.
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 21, 2009 9:02 am

Bright_Eyed wrote:

Quote :
You can make this statement without bashing a couple of gargantuan cultures with huge cliches by simply bringing up the willingness of humanity to co-exist shown by the idea of a social contract (aka, don't be a dick to me, and I won't be a dick to you). Just saying. javascript:emoticonp('Razz')

I am not bashing. I am telling the truth. If it hurts so be it.


Quote :
Why is it possible for the big bang theory to be correct with no proof, and it is impossible for the creation theory to be correct with no proof? Because one makes more 'sense'? That's just a culture thing, it used to make a lot of sense that God created everything, so perhaps perspective is in order.

I never said that the big bang theory was correct. I was offering another possibility. It used to make a lot of sense that the planets revolved around the earth and that the world was flat. Didn't make it right.
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PostSubject: Re: Does God Exist   Does God Exist - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 21, 2009 9:17 am

Christoff Odendaal wrote:
You know I have to make a statement here Razz

Thomas: I`m sick as hell of your Occam`s Razor. That has become such a cliché that it doesn`t mean anything anymore.

Because people use as an effective example: the simplest answer is usually correct. You catch a child with his hand in a jar of sweets in a shop when the shopkeeper isn't looking. Its perfectly possible that some bullies stole his watch, throw it too far and had it bounce from the back of the shop down into the jar, and the boy ran in to try and get it back without wanting the shopkeeper to know of his suffering at the hands of the bullies. Its also possible he's trying to steal some sweets. The latter option is far more likely.

Christoff Odendaal wrote:
Occam`s Razor has no effect onreligion since religion has a very real and important purpose in modern society: keeping order. See, as much as religion drives people to bad deeds it also gives a reason for NOT commiting crime and obeying the law. It motivates empirical law as there are consequences which we cannot escape, not even if no-one sees us. Therefore your argument loses.

Order created through numerous wars? More wars have been fought in the name of religion than any other by a long way. As a method of population control? Well if you inherently have no morals and no regard for the law, then perhaps you need this doctrine to keep you in check. Ironically, that was likely the reason for the Norwegian church burnings; as a method of brainwashing the masses, surely freeing them could only be a good thing?

Watch as I apply Occams Razor: War was carried out in the name of religion, the numerous 'God' references in the run up to the war in Iraq, the whole of the crusades blessed by the Vatican. The most likely truth was that it wasn't in the name of religion, it was being utilised as an effective reason to brainwash a populace into doing as the few in power wanted. So you're argument rests on the fact that those without remorse for despicable actions need faith to prevent them from becoming monstrosities. Well, good job the Yorkshire Ripper was religious eh?

Christoff Odendaal wrote:
Religion also gives another very real input to modern civilization: hope. Without the solice of knowing that something greater than yourself is in control and knowing that all has a purpose, many simply won`t have the motivation to get out of bed in the morning. Even your no nonsense secular approach to religion cannot escape the inevitible advantages it yields.

Hope? You gain hope from the know knowledge that everything you have done and will do was already pre-ordained? You gain solace from the complete absence of free will, the knowledge that your entire life is completely meaningless except as a rat in a maze? I gain hope from the knowledge that my life is of my own choosing, that I am able to do as I wish. The knowledge that I can get up and have my own free will is what gets me up in the morning; not the ultimate futility of all life. I do not fear my own mortality, nor do I wish to live forever. This fact I accepted long ago, and so I should make the most of my time alive and not live in fear of all the things I want to do now, forestalling in some unwavering belief in the afterlife.

Christoff Odendaal wrote:
Additionally if I ponder the universe, the very nature of existance, I always get back to the same unanswerable question: the universe exists - that we know. If there were no cause, there would be no consequence. Therefore: if there were no God, there would be no universe. Why do we exist, then?

Then what caused God? If there was no cause for his existence then there can be no consequence, and we're back to square one. All you've done is theorised one observable consequence of a theoretical prediction with an unobservable consequence with no possible knowable cause.

"But God is unfathomable and outside our scope of time" you cry.

You can actually picture the big bang in your head? And the current theory actually includes 'The Big Crunch," which too is infinite in time. Not outside our scope of time - if he doesn't exist in our reality then I'd argue he doesn't really exist but that's besides the point - and if he will live for all time then he already knows all that will happen, thus rendering our lives futile once more. Religion is seeking an answer to a question we cannot know. What is the meaning of life? I don't know. I don't even know if we have a meaning other than what meaning we make for ourselves. My life is of my own choosing.


EDIT: Proof? There is proof for neither. There is evidence for the big bang theory in the form of the hubbles observation of the expanding universe in the form of red-shift, the cosmic background radiation detected and the observable ratio's of the elements (there is a LOT more hydrogen in the universe than there are heavier elements). This is evidence to support the theory. What evidence is there for god that cannot be explained scientifically?
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Does God Exist

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