Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

20% out of over 80 million ? that's quiet some people.

What gave you the idea those people -in Will's and other's links- died for their beliefs !? they died because they were setenced to die for whatever the hell they did, so -sorry for the god damn repeated example, but I'am too tired to think right now- if a murderer is hanged, he dies for his beliefs ? if those people we're talking about rejected their religions, they'd still be hanged because these are the rules of that strict country. They dont die believing, if it were up for them they wouldnt die at all.

10%. Typo, my bad. And that's a broad average from multiple countries. Its hard to be specific - people have a tendency to lie about for fear of ridicule and derision from society.

What makes me think they died? They refused to admit to not being Muslim and admitted to being homosexual, despite knowing that they were to be killed. They were guilty only of the crime of being homosexual. A murderer dies for committing murder. Thoughts are not a crime. But suppose you're right. Islam indeed does hang non-believers. Great freedom of thought there.

I'm getting tired of this argument. I've provided ample evidence to demonstrate there is no explanation other than that homosexuality is genetically linked and thus not a controllable factor. Most of you're responses are contradictory in the vein of "Muslims taught to be open-minded" and "We hang non-believers," "You can choose whom you find attractive" and "I can't choose to find her attractive," "Whether homosexuality is wrong is subjective" and "Would you not hang a murderer?" and so on. Im done. Continue persecuting those who don't conform.

You do not have all the facts to issue such statement, how do you know they admitted being homosexuals and not caught in the act ? how do you know they actually didnt reject Islam as a religion ? it's all questions I doubt you can answer.Islam doesnt hang non believers -your quoting was taken out of contest as mentioned before- actually, Islam tells muslims to leave everyone's faith to them, and never force religion upon anyone.

So am I. You think you've provided enough evidence, I honestly dont. As I've said, those who dont believe dont get any punishment in this life according to Islam, but in the after one.

Mostafa wrote:

son_ov_hades wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

son_ov_hades wrote:

Whether homosexuality is genetic or due to upbringing I don't know, but I can certainly tell you it's not a choice. A good deal of homosexuals spend their entire lives trying NOT to be gay, even getting married and having kids, but it never works. If it was a choice there would be no struggle whatsoever, these people would simply choose not to be gay.

I dont mean a choice as in you wake up one morning and go, fuck it, I'am going to be gay, no. I mean it comes from absence of correct surroundings and lack of ability to tell what's right and what's wrong ( Read: before someone asks, who the fuck are you to say what's right and what's wrong, I say, if it goes against natural order, it's wrong).

But how is someone's surroundings and their ability to tell right from wrong a choice?

They're not a choice; choosing to abid and follow the surroundings and just going with the follow is infact a choice.

Does not compute. How does someone make decisions? I would say based on their ability to tell right from wrong and their upbringing. So if a person was raised in an environment where they never learned right from wrong according to your definition(religion), how could they possibly have the ability to choose anything else?

I'm sorry guys i had to do this...

Peter wrote:

I'm sorry guys i had to do this...

This will never be funny.. ever.

Monkzum wrote:

Peter wrote:

I'm sorry guys i had to do this...

This will never be funny.. ever.

I know, but relevant to some exstension...The debate about enviroment vs. genetics has been going on for centuries so i doubt that we can reach any sort of agreement here, but then again i don't think it's the point of the topic to figure this out...

Personally i believe it's a mix, very inconclusive, but so is smashing arguments and evidence against each other....Maybe we could get back to the whole "Does god exist ?" question in the first place. Atheist/Agnostic here, but more importantly i believe organized religion is and always have been pure evil.

PS. Why the fuck to we have a smiley that looks like Slash ?

Why not?

I dunno actually, when i think about it...
Maybe i was brainwashed when i read the facebook confession thread, bidley took some pretty good swings at him.

Peter wrote:

I dunno actually, when i think about it...
Maybe i was brainwashed when i read the facebook confession thread, bidley took some pretty good swings at him.

He's a mediocre guitarist who has a knack for distinctive catchy riffs.

Back to the 'Does God exist' topic.
I was thinking about it and I came to the conclusion that God is just an overseer of everything. Not a part of any religion, just the 'big guy upstairs' who determines whether you go to heaven or hell. See the big desk guy from Dragon Ball Z.

Rosalind wrote:

Ziegenbartami wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Not to mention referring to the earth as flat, referring to man as the first creation of the earth, etc, etc).

Where in the Bible does God say the earth is flat?
Nor does it mention that man is the first creation of the earth (in fact, man's creation is one of the last things he does in the Creation story).

Of all the animals I meant. Yeah, light was first, and then planets yada yada. My point is that it contradicts every fossil ever discovered of pre-man existence, which is pretty much claiming everything in the natural history museum a hoax.

Looked up the flat thing, looks like I was wrong on that one. Still, lots of smaller inconsistencies to ponder.

Thanks for that.

Pfff! Pitiful! If I had been here, this topic would`ve gone on for at least another 20 pages

Kwartin wrote:

Back to the 'Does God exist' topic.
I was thinking about it and I came to the conclusion that God is just an overseer of everything. Not a part of any religion, just the 'big guy upstairs' who determines whether you go to heaven or hell. See the big desk guy from Dragon Ball Z.

Read first, think later! You need to gather as much information as you can before coming to any big conclusions. If God just judges if people go to hell or heaven, there must be "good" people and "bad" people. For that to happen, God has to set some basic rules. So there has to be some communication between human and God. Some form of revelation. If you say "humans can just follow their instinct and be good or bad themselves". Well, for some, their instinct tells them to kill. For some, the moral thing is the opposite of others. If there is a God who judges, he has his laws.

I would personally suggest starting with the Old Testament, New Testament, and Final Testament (Quran), if you haven't read them already.

^ Ah, but does God set them or follow them? Read Plato's Euthyphro.

Nautilus wrote:

^ Ah, but does God set them or follow them? Read Plato's Euthyphro.

I will remember the recommendation, thanks. We are talking about God [as Muslims, Jews and Christian understand Him]. In that view, God is not a part of creation, He is the Creator. So the laws of creation do not apply to Him, like birth, disease and death. He is Being, not a being. God in the Scriptures has been described as All-powerful, All-seeing and All-knowing. With those kickass traits, I don't see why he would be following the laws that he created for men.

Ahmedeus wrote:

Kwartin wrote:

Back to the 'Does God exist' topic.
I was thinking about it and I came to the conclusion that God is just an overseer of everything. Not a part of any religion, just the 'big guy upstairs' who determines whether you go to heaven or hell. See the big desk guy from Dragon Ball Z.

Read first, think later! You need to gather as much information as you can before coming to any big conclusions. If God just judges if people go to hell or heaven, there must be "good" people and "bad" people. For that to happen, God has to set some basic rules. So there has to be some communication between human and God. Some form of revelation. If you say "humans can just follow their instinct and be good or bad themselves". Well, for some, their instinct tells them to kill. For some, the moral thing is the opposite of others. If there is a God who judges, he has his laws.

I would personally suggest starting with the Old Testament, New Testament, and Final Testament (Quran), if you haven't read them already.

hey so I'm new here, and would kind of like to get involved a little.

You refered to the Quran as the final testament, which I know you as a muslim would believe. This is kind of off topic to the subject, but how would you respond to me as a Christian pointing out the obvious points that differ between the new testament and the old testament.

The Quran, as far as I know, (I haven't personally read the whole thing, though I plan to), is more a list of rules and laws, whereas the Bible is more of a story of the redemption of the world.

I gained from your post that you also believe that there are good and bad people, which I as a Christian do not. I believe that all people are bad through their sin that started from 'the fall' in genesis. I believe that all are bad and can only be saved through belief in Jesus, where you believe in acts as redemption.

You also do not believe in the Trinity.

So how can you call the Quran the final testament to the Bible.

(sorry if this makes no sense. Also is there any place for me to post and introduce myself?)

Theres an introductions thread stickied in "General Discussion."

This thread is also pretty old, though im sure Mostafa still has some argument left in him

Which god do I have to pray to in order to keep this thread buried?

son_ov_hades wrote:

Which god do I have to pray to in order to keep this thread buried?

All I know is Halford never returned my calls.

Melodude wrote:

hey so I'm new here, and would kind of like to get involved a little.

You refered to the Quran as the final testament, which I know you as a muslim would believe. This is kind of off topic to the subject, but how would you respond to me as a Christian pointing out the obvious points that differ between the new testament and the old testament.

The Quran, as far as I know, (I haven't personally read the whole thing, though I plan to), is more a list of rules and laws, whereas the Bible is more of a story of the redemption of the world.

I gained from your post that you also believe that there are good and bad people, which I as a Christian do not. I believe that all people are bad through their sin that started from 'the fall' in genesis. I believe that all are bad and can only be saved through belief in Jesus, where you believe in acts as redemption.

You also do not believe in the Trinity.

So how can you call the Quran the final testament to the Bible.

(sorry if this makes no sense. Also is there any place for me to post and introduce myself?)

A good piece of advice would be not to get involved. From my countless debates on religion here I have come to realise one thing: everyone thinks they're right, no matter how little sense they make. Atheists who don't get your point will pretend your stupid for defending it and other atheists will spitefully agree with them because being an atheist makes you smarter than anyone who isn't one. The same goes for Muslims, who pig-headedly continue to insist on their beliefs, no matter how absurd and stupid they come off. And the same is also true about Christians who condescendingly keep admitting "I AM open-minded, I just pity you for not seeing things as I do". In short: religious debates bring out the worst in everyone, so try to avoid them.

Rosalind wrote:

son_ov_hades wrote:

Which god do I have to pray to in order to keep this thread buried?

All I know is Halford never returned my calls.

He has a plan with withholding it from you. Just keep believing

OH, dear god ! why bump this ?

@ Thomas: No thanks mate, not in this thread at least , maybe few months from now when it comes up again. xD

What Geoff and Chriss said.