Taking a holiday is not the same thing. I'm talking about citizens, not tourists. You aren't moving home, your temporarily travelling. Yes, different countries have different merits, but permanently taking residence in another country should mean you accept everything that comes with it. If you haven't done the research then tough. You'd better learn quick. I never talked about fighting tooth and nail for your new homeland, I'm talking about fitting in and respecting the country. Certainly when you enter the US as a citizen, you have to swear allegiance to that country, and in the UK you have to do the same (to the EU). Refuse, you don't get in. What you're talking about is swearing allegiance and then going back on that oath. Why should any country allow someone to move there if all they're gonna do is try and change things to how they liked them back home? If you liked it so much you'd have stayed there.

So my point stands, if you like things where you currently reside, stay. If you prefer things in another country, then by all means move there, but DONT then turn around and spit on the hospitality of others, trying to make a 'best of both' situation. Both the UK and the US strive to be as accommodating as possible (some could argue too accomodating) to the needs of a wide variety of backgrounds (generally speaking) but it shouldn't all be one way.

Christoff Odendaal wrote:

What have we learned from all this: Conformity = good

Kidding, but conformity is logical, nay, mandatory if you want to function successfully in any society. But I do think you can live in one country but still be loyal to another. But if you don't even have the decency to do the effort of learning the language, you might as well have stayed at home. Seriously.

Never argued against that.

Rosalind wrote:

Taking a holiday is not the same thing. I'm talking about citizens, not tourists. You aren't moving home, your temporarily travelling. Yes, different countries have different merits, but permanently taking residence in another country should mean you accept everything that comes with it. If you haven't done the research then tough. You'd better learn quick. I never talked about fighting tooth and nail for your new homeland, I'm talking about fitting in and respecting the country. Certainly when you enter the US as a citizen, you have to swear allegiance to that country, and in the UK you have to do the same (to the EU). Refuse, you don't get in. What you're talking about is swearing allegiance and then going back on that oath. Why should any country allow someone to move there if all they're gonna do is try and change things to how they liked them back home? If you liked it so much you'd have stayed there.

So my point stands, if you like things where you currently reside, stay. If you prefer things in another country, then by all means move there, but DONT then turn around and spit on the hospitality of others, trying to make a 'best of both' situation. Both the UK and the US strive to be as accommodating as possible (some could argue too accomodating) to the needs of a wide variety of backgrounds (generally speaking) but it shouldn't all be one way.

Fitting in and respecting the country I agree with as said before. But why would I swear allegiance to a country that isnt mine ? as long as I live there, adjusting well to the local habits, not making trouble, it's all fine. But to come and tell me you want me to fight for you ? or to defend a country that isnt mine ? hell no. Who said I'll try to change things the way they were back home ? how about just wanting to have a decent job stick to my own business and cope with the country I'am living in, but to swear you allegiance would be abandoning my allegiance to my own country which will never happen.

He who spits in the face of hospitality is not welcomed, agreed. But refusing to be loyal to the country as in defend it and ignore my own country ? No, thanks.

[quote="Mostafa"]

Quote :

I'am not only talking about people in vaccation. Also people who just happen to work in America to make a decent buck and then return to their home country. Are those supposed to switch lolyalty to America on moving, then to their own country on moving back :/ ? And I assume becoming a citizen means getting the nationality and giving loyalty to the American flag, If a person (READ: CHOOSES) to do so then it's his own will, but no outsider to the country is forced to do so.

So you should be able to take all the good thing that America has to offer and never show gratitude for it by keeping their loyalty to a country they left because it was not the land of opportunity that they have come to live, prosper and work in. That seems fair. As Thomas has pointed out to you numerous times. If the home country was sooo great then why leave? Many more do so for opportunities there country does not offer then are forced out.

Quote :

Palestians, Afghans, Iraqee people or whoever maybe forced for some reason what so ever.

So why if these people were forced out of their country would they remain loyal to it? It doesn't want them and may have drove them out by force. So move on and start a new home in a place that allows you to be free. America allows you to be free and this is why hundreds of thousands flock to it every year to become citizens, and in return all they ask is for your loyalty. I would be willing to guess that all who were forced out give their loyalties to the country that gives them that freedom as opposed to the ones that drove them out and does not want them. If not they have problems.

Quote :

This my friend is where we will disagree strongly. Here, a country isnt only an idea, it's the very own soil you were raised in, the people of your own country, the water, the food, the very own air ( You were talking about cheesy, eh XD) not just some idea I can take with me and start anywhere, one's country can only be one place and one place only.

And this is why peace will never be achieved in Palestine. You are more worried about dirt then peace. Most countries were started by someone or a group of someone's that were fed up with where they lived. They left all they had and started new. This is the formation of America(at least for white people I am sure the Indians see it different). America is an idea it is about freedom and Democracy it has nothing to do with land. I could start "America" anywhere.

Quote :

Loyalties dont come and return.

Really? Not all liked or approved of Hitler and the way he did things in Germany during his reign. There loyalties were not with the Germany of that time. But once the Nazis were defeated their loyalties returned to Germany and hope in starting anew. It is situational. It is not always black and white. There are some grey areas.

"And I assume becoming a citizen means getting the nationality and giving loyalty to the American flag, If a person (READ: CHOOSES) to do so then it's his own will, but no outsider to the country is forced to do so."

Right, this is the distinction between Citizen and visitor. You can apply for a Visa, I'm not sure on time restraints, but it permits you residence in that country for a limited time, but you will not be a citizen. This means you don't swear allegiance, but are still subject to the laws of the country. In addition, you cannot claim any benefits that you would as a citizen. In the UK, that means no free healthcare, no free dental treatment, no housing or job benefits, possibly (probably) no loan or mortgage allowance (though you can use a credit card from your homeland at a fixed charge), and you'd need to fill out the paperwork allowing you to find work and have that submitted.

As for changing things, this is EXACTLY what the argument is about. Muslims entered Switzerland and now are wanting minarets. The local population born there are having to accommodate to the desires of those who are moving there. If you move for work - and I mean move PERMANENTLY, and not for 3 months or however long until the Visa expires - then the country is offering you employment at a wage you could not receive in your home country. You don't need to move there for work, but you chose to.

Rosalind wrote:

"And I assume becoming a citizen means getting the nationality and giving loyalty to the American flag, If a person (READ: CHOOSES) to do so then it's his own will, but no outsider to the country is forced to do so."

Right, this is the distinction between Citizen and visitor. You can apply for a Visa, I'm not sure on time restraints, but it permits you residence in that country for a limited time, but you will not be a citizen. This means you don't swear allegiance, but are still subject to the laws of the country. In addition, you cannot claim any benefits that you would as a citizen. In the UK, that means no free healthcare, no free dental treatment, no housing or job benefits, possibly (probably) no loan or mortgage allowance (though you can use a credit card from your homeland at a fixed charge), and you'd need to fill out the paperwork allowing you to find work and have that submitted.

As for changing things, this is EXACTLY what the argument is about. Muslims entered Switzerland and now are wanting minarets. The local population born there are having to accommodate to the desires of those who are moving there. If you move for work - and I mean move PERMANENTLY, and not for 3 months or however long until the Visa expires - then the country is offering you employment at a wage you could not receive in your home country. You don't need to move there for work, but you chose to.

I believe visas are usually valid for one year, maybe two, depending on the circumstances (uni, work, etc.). Also, the US and most EU nations have agreements in place where you can live in another country for up to 6 months with just a passport, but in order to find a job you would need a visa. For example, on my way back from Germany a couple years ago, we had a layover in London and needed to get from Heathrow to Gatwick airport, so we had to go through a sorta abbreviated customs process, including getting a stamp in our passports saying we could reside in the country for 6 months, but couldn't seek work or claim public benefits in this time. Also, I know that US citizens can reside in Germany up to 6 months with just a passport under similar conditions, but I had to get a visa to live there as a student for an entire year.
Kinda OT, but you know all about visas and such in the EU

Rosalind wrote:

Right, this is the distinction between Citizen and visitor. You can apply for a Visa, I'm not sure on time restraints, but it permits you residence in that country for a limited time, but you will not be a citizen. This means you don't swear allegiance, but are still subject to the laws of the country. In addition, you cannot claim any benefits that you would as a citizen. In the UK, that means no free healthcare, no free dental treatment, no housing or job benefits, possibly (probably) no loan or mortgage allowance (though you can use a credit card from your homeland at a fixed charge), and you'd need to fill out the paperwork allowing you to find work and have that submitted.

WOW! I had no idea Britain did that. That is good to hear. I wish America would institute some of those things. I think this is why so many are here illegally. Why bother making it legal when the benefits are available when illegal. Doing what your country does makes the most sense. It gives a taste to show them what your country has to offer but also provides incentive for someone to want to become a citizen. That is how you build loyalty.

Ziegenbartami wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

"And I assume becoming a citizen means getting the nationality and giving loyalty to the American flag, If a person (READ: CHOOSES) to do so then it's his own will, but no outsider to the country is forced to do so."

Right, this is the distinction between Citizen and visitor. You can apply for a Visa, I'm not sure on time restraints, but it permits you residence in that country for a limited time, but you will not be a citizen. This means you don't swear allegiance, but are still subject to the laws of the country. In addition, you cannot claim any benefits that you would as a citizen. In the UK, that means no free healthcare, no free dental treatment, no housing or job benefits, possibly (probably) no loan or mortgage allowance (though you can use a credit card from your homeland at a fixed charge), and you'd need to fill out the paperwork allowing you to find work and have that submitted.

As for changing things, this is EXACTLY what the argument is about. Muslims entered Switzerland and now are wanting minarets. The local population born there are having to accommodate to the desires of those who are moving there. If you move for work - and I mean move PERMANENTLY, and not for 3 months or however long until the Visa expires - then the country is offering you employment at a wage you could not receive in your home country. You don't need to move there for work, but you chose to.

I believe visas are usually valid for one year, maybe two, depending on the circumstances (uni, work, etc.). Also, the US and most EU nations have agreements in place where you can live in another country for up to 6 months with just a passport, but in order to find a job you would need a visa. For example, on my way back from Germany a couple years ago, we had a layover in London and needed to get from Heathrow to Gatwick airport, so we had to go through a sorta abbreviated customs process, including getting a stamp in our passports saying we could reside in the country for 6 months, but couldn't seek work or claim public benefits in this time. Also, I know that US citizens can reside in Germany up to 6 months with just a passport under similar conditions, but I had to get a visa to live there as a student for an entire year.
Kinda OT, but you know all about visas and such in the EU

It varies depending on where your passport is from and where you're going. I needed to get a visa to enter the US a couple of years back, and it permitted me residence for 3 months as a tourist. Egypt would probably be fairly long maximum stay, as it still has strong ties to the UK after being a British colony for such a long period of time. I knew a Canadian-Kuwaiti (dual nationality) guy who needed to renew his visa over here once a year. If I was travelling around Europe, i'd be fine unless I was staying for longer than 6 months in most places, but entering from outside of the EU you'd probably need to get a visa.

AarO)))n wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Right, this is the distinction between Citizen and visitor. You can apply for a Visa, I'm not sure on time restraints, but it permits you residence in that country for a limited time, but you will not be a citizen. This means you don't swear allegiance, but are still subject to the laws of the country. In addition, you cannot claim any benefits that you would as a citizen. In the UK, that means no free healthcare, no free dental treatment, no housing or job benefits, possibly (probably) no loan or mortgage allowance (though you can use a credit card from your homeland at a fixed charge), and you'd need to fill out the paperwork allowing you to find work and have that submitted.

WOW! I had no idea Britain did that. That is good to hear. I wish America would institute some of those things. I think this is why so many are here illegally. Why bother making it legal when the benefits are available when illegal. Doing what your country does makes the most sense. It gives a taste to show them what your country has to offer but also provides incentive for someone to want to become a citizen. That is how you build loyalty.

I thought the US did too? You actually need a visa stating why you're there to get through customs. Its actually stricter than anywhere else I know of. I thought you would still need proof of citizenship to apply for any government or legal assistance?

Rosalind wrote:

AarO)))n wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Right, this is the distinction between Citizen and visitor. You can apply for a Visa, I'm not sure on time restraints, but it permits you residence in that country for a limited time, but you will not be a citizen. This means you don't swear allegiance, but are still subject to the laws of the country. In addition, you cannot claim any benefits that you would as a citizen. In the UK, that means no free healthcare, no free dental treatment, no housing or job benefits, possibly (probably) no loan or mortgage allowance (though you can use a credit card from your homeland at a fixed charge), and you'd need to fill out the paperwork allowing you to find work and have that submitted.

WOW! I had no idea Britain did that. That is good to hear. I wish America would institute some of those things. I think this is why so many are here illegally. Why bother making it legal when the benefits are available when illegal. Doing what your country does makes the most sense. It gives a taste to show them what your country has to offer but also provides incentive for someone to want to become a citizen. That is how you build loyalty.

I thought the US did too? You actually need a visa stating why you're there to get through customs. Its actually stricter than anywhere else I know of. I thought you would still need proof of citizenship to apply for any government or legal assistance?

You do. But medical is free if you go to a county hospital(though it is not the greatest care you can get but it is free). That is killing many of the states. California for sure. Plus once you have a kid here in America they are legal citizens of America. So how do you send back their illegal parents back? Remember we have many illegals living in this country. As I was pointing out to Geoff. They can get around it by getting paid in cash and at this point they are part of the working force,especially in California. They are willing to work hard for very little pay. But they cost the state millions. But we don't control the border properly and the Mexican government actually gives out pamphlets telling where to find food, shelter, first aid , and where to get cell phone reception when illegally crossing the border. So why bother coming legally and assimilating when noone makes you? It is not a easy life for them. But it is obviously better then where they came.

I'm really pretty shocked at the xenophobia displayed in this thread. I'll just say that the fear or immigrants changing the nature of a country is stupid, change is good.

son_ov_hades wrote:

I'm really pretty shocked at the xenophobia displayed in this thread. I'll just say that the fear or immigrants changing the nature of a country is stupid, change is good.

Not always.

Christoff Odendaal wrote:

son_ov_hades wrote:

I'm really pretty shocked at the xenophobia displayed in this thread. I'll just say that the fear or immigrants changing the nature of a country is stupid, change is good.

Not always.

Of course, but new cultures, languages, religions or whatever forming their own communities within a Country is great.

son_ov_hades wrote:

Christoff Odendaal wrote:

son_ov_hades wrote:

I'm really pretty shocked at the xenophobia displayed in this thread. I'll just say that the fear or immigrants changing the nature of a country is stupid, change is good.

Not always.

Of course, but new cultures, languages, religions or whatever forming their own communities within a Country is great.

I'm not entirely sure this is true, but remember last year there was a big hooplah about that religious town in Texas, I think, and they took all the kids away because they were getting beat and molested? That wasn't good and that was an example of a religion forming their own community. I know that in larger religions like the ones being discussed things like this don;t happen much, but just saying that religions forming a community in a country isnt always great.

son_ov_hades wrote:

Of course, but new cultures, languages, religions or whatever forming their own communities within a Country is great.

You can't be serious Geoff? I agree right up to the point of "forming own communities". Is that not what happened during the segregation era in this country? Why should we all be separate? We should be together. People living in their own communities within a community does not breed cohesive nations. Let us not forget that America does not have it's own culture. America is a mutt. We take things from all the different cultures over the years that have come to this country and make them our own. So the introduction of new languages and cultures is great and I for one welcome them. But to separate yourself from the rest of us is something I find disrespectful. How do we live as one nation if everyone is off in their own corner of it? This is not xenophobic, nationalistic perhaps. But I love this nation and know that for it to work we all must come together as one people and one nation for it to function. Not forsaking your heritage or culture or even your original language. But rather bring all that to the table while still learning the language that is predominitly spoken(English in this case) and do your best to assimilate to your surroundings. This is what makes a nation stronger. Not finding a corner of it and never be willing to venture out of it.

All this is based on if they are or wish to become permanent citizens of that country. I don't want any confusion.

The_Accolade wrote:

son_ov_hades wrote:

Christoff Odendaal wrote:

son_ov_hades wrote:

I'm really pretty shocked at the xenophobia displayed in this thread. I'll just say that the fear or immigrants changing the nature of a country is stupid, change is good.

Not always.

Of course, but new cultures, languages, religions or whatever forming their own communities within a Country is great.

I'm not entirely sure this is true, but remember last year there was a big hooplah about that religious town in Texas, I think, and they took all the kids away because they were getting beat and molested? That wasn't good and that was an example of a religion forming their own community. I know that in larger religions like the ones being discussed things like this don;t happen much, but just saying that religions forming a community in a country isnt always great.

Totally not what I'm talking about at all. I mean like Chinatown in New York, I didn't mean cults.

son_ov_hades wrote:

I'm really pretty shocked at the xenophobia displayed in this thread. I'll just say that the fear or immigrants changing the nature of a country is stupid, change is good.

Don't get me wrong, I love exploring other cultures. I'd probably say that was the biggest thing about London that I miss; walking past the Jamaican guys smoking up, past the pub where all the old men complain about anything and everything. Getting cheap imported beer from the cash and carry next to the Bengali market, where I may not recognise half of what's being sold, but I can hear that husky cockney accent and still feel at home, or going a little further on to the newsagents run by a few Polish guys specialising in Polish beers. The fact that my friend used to come around with a big pot of curry that you'd probably have to go to India yourself to beat, the look of sobbing when the Italian girl I shared a place with saw me cook pasta, and the Chinese girl who told me off for buying "chinese" noodles made in Holland (I think), who taught me their way of cooking them in return for teaching her how to make bangers and mash. The intrigue from my Hindu friend as he watched me make a fry-up, or my own intrigue at home-made Polish beetroot soup. And this is just the food - talking and sharing ideas and national feelings with all those from nations i've met: Russia, Poland, Australia, America, Germany, France, Brazil, Greece, Turkey, Romania, Switzerland, Austria, Kuwait, Iran, China, Japan, Singapore, Kazakhstan, all in the last three years; the sort of thing you can't read in any book, because its not factual and more orientated around belief, emotion and feelings.

But this is all cultural exchange. What causes me concern is not the integration of multiple cultures, but the domination of one over another. I don't want to wake up one day only to discover that I no longer recognise my own country.

AarO)))n wrote:

son_ov_hades wrote:

Of course, but new cultures, languages, religions or whatever forming their own communities within a Country is great.

You can't be serious Geoff? I agree right up to the point of "forming own communities". Is that not what happened during the segregation era in this country? Why should we all be separate? We should be together. People living in their own communities within a community does not breed cohesive nations. Let us not forget that America does not have it's own culture. America is a mutt. We take things from all the different cultures over the years that have come to this country and make them our own. So the introduction of new languages and cultures is great and I for one welcome them. But to separate yourself from the rest of us is something I find disrespectful. How do we live as one nation if everyone is off in their own corner of it? This is not xenophobic, nationalistic perhaps. But I love this nation and know that for it to work we all must come together as one people and one nation for it to function. Not forsaking your heritage or culture or even your original language. But rather bring all that to the table while still learning the language that is predominitly spoken(English in this case) and do your best to assimilate to your surroundings. This is what makes a nation stronger. Not finding a corner of it and never be willing to venture out of it.

All this is based on if they are or wish to become permanent citizens of that country. I don't want any confusion.

Full disclosure; I find nationalism to be incredibly dangerous too.

Where did I say that "forming their own communities" meant segregated entities? Like I said Chinatown, or the Hasidic Jewish communities very close to my hometown are examples. These groups are part of American society, yet live amongst people of common heritage, ethnicity, and religion. What is wrong with this? It allows these people to remain cohesive and retain their language, culture, and religion. In Lakewood, NJ Yiddish signs can be found everywhere along with English, Hasidic Jews are very much part of the larger community too. I don't see anything wrong with wanting live among people similar to yourself within a country.

[quote="son_ov_hades"]

Quote :

Full disclosure; I find nationalism to be incredibly dangerous too.

Depending on how you act on it it can be. I am not a love or leave type person. Many things that go on in this country I do not agree with and think speaking out about them is what we should do. After all it is what this country was founded on.

Quote :

Where did I say that "forming their own communities" meant segregated entities? Like I said Chinatown, or the Hasidic Jewish communities very close to my hometown are examples. These groups are part of American society, yet live amongst people of common heritage, ethnicity, and religion. What is wrong with this? It allows these people to remain cohesive and retain their language, culture, and religion. In Lakewood, NJ Yiddish signs can be found everywhere along with English, Hasidic Jews are very much part of the larger community too. I don't see anything wrong with wanting live among people similar to yourself within a country.

You may not have said segregated communities but you are very much implying it. I think having these communities can be just as dangerous as ones that exclude people based on color or ethnic background. How are they to lose their heritage because they live amongst people that are not the same? My Jewish neighbor has no problem celebrating Passover anymore than I do celebrating Christmas or my black neighbor has celebrating Kwanza. Living amongst your own and excluding those who are not is wrong no matter the race, creed, or color. This is how people become ignorant of other cultures by never having experiences with them. Keeping themselves encased in there own people and ways is not good for them or the rest of the community. These types of neighborhoods were needed when the immigrants first started coming to this country. The Irish, the Italians, the Jews and so forth all had places where they all lived. But it was more of a survival thing then a wish not to join society as a whole. We need to live as one. Not every difference in it's own corner of the society. How are people to learn if they are never exposed to these different cultures? By learning and living together that builds understanding. Understanding will breed the eradication or racism and prejudices based on misinformation. By keeping yourself separate and only exposing yourself to like minded people, you learn nothing about the world around you.

Rosalind wrote:

son_ov_hades wrote:

I'm really pretty shocked at the xenophobia displayed in this thread. I'll just say that the fear or immigrants changing the nature of a country is stupid, change is good.

Don't get me wrong, I love exploring other cultures. I'd probably say that was the biggest thing about London that I miss; walking past the Jamaican guys smoking up, past the pub where all the old men complain about anything and everything. Getting cheap imported beer from the cash and carry next to the Bengali market, where I may not recognise half of what's being sold, but I can hear that husky cockney accent and still feel at home, or going a little further on to the newsagents run by a few Polish guys specialising in Polish beers. The fact that my friend used to come around with a big pot of curry that you'd probably have to go to India yourself to beat, the look of sobbing when the Italian girl I shared a place with saw me cook pasta, and the Chinese girl who told me off for buying "chinese" noodles made in Holland (I think), who taught me their way of cooking them in return for teaching her how to make bangers and mash. The intrigue from my Hindu friend as he watched me make a fry-up, or my own intrigue at home-made Polish beetroot soup. And this is just the food - talking and sharing ideas and national feelings with all those from nations i've met: Russia, Poland, Australia, America, Germany, France, Brazil, Greece, Turkey, Romania, Switzerland, Austria, Kuwait, Iran, China, Japan, Singapore, Kazakhstan, all in the last three years; the sort of thing you can't read in any book, because its not factual and more orientated around belief, emotion and feelings.

But this is all cultural exchange. What causes me concern is not the integration of multiple cultures, but the domination of one over another. I don't want to wake up one day only to discover that I no longer recognise my own country.

I like this, when I was in london in the summer I was amazed how well people was intrigated opposed to Denmark, it felt nice eating "real" Chinese, Indian or well I'm not sure what it was, maybe Thai, maybe Korean, in what i assumed was a land as Denmark.

I'm always amazed when we have dinners at my school, because of all the foreing flavours.. In Denmark we have a lot of Ghettos they're all build somewhere in the 70's when alot of people was imagrating to Denmark and they're all very ugly concrete monuments and non of them are a pleasent place to be, especially for me. Have had some bad experience with me and one of my friends in a area where a lot of immagrints live and let's just say the 14-18 year old boys don't like us. I imagine it well get better over the years, but for now there is a lot of hostility with some of them.

Rosalind wrote:

But this is all cultural exchange. What causes me concern is not the integration of multiple cultures, but the domination of one over another. I don't want to wake up one day only to discover that I no longer recognise my own country.

I agree completely with this statement. See Dale's is not the only ass that gets kissed.

Quote :

So you should be able to take all the good thing that America has to offer and never show gratitude for it by keeping their loyalty to a country they left because it was not the land of opportunity that they have come to live, prosper and work in. That seems fair. As Thomas has pointed out to you numerous times. If the home country was sooo great then why leave? Many more do so for opportunities there country does not offer then are forced out.

So, by working and helping the economy of the country, paying taxes, becoming a law abiding citizen, not making up any trouble, I'am not showing gratitude ..? come on man, you should ask for one's soul next..

Quote :

So why if these people were forced out of their country would they remain loyal to it? It doesn't want them and may have drove them out by force. So move on and start a new home in a place that allows you to be free. America allows you to be free and this is why hundreds of thousands flock to it every year to become citizens, and in return all they ask is for your loyalty. I would be willing to guess that all who were forced out give their loyalties to the country that gives them that freedom as opposed to the ones that drove them out and does not want them. If not they have problems.

Because my loyalty lies to the country itself ! not the people running it. And as I've said, this is what seperates the western world from the eastern one, we have codes we live by, abandoning my loyalty to another country is something you'd rarely find someone doing around here, no matter what reason or excuse..

Quote :

And this is why peace will never be achieved in Palestine. You are more worried about dirt then peace. Most countries were started by someone or a group of someone's that were fed up with where they lived. They left all they had and started new. This is the formation of America(at least for white people I am sure the Indians see it different). America is an idea it is about freedom and Democracy it has nothing to do with land. I could start "America" anywhere.

That's the cost of having ethics and morals to live by. Choosing to abandon one's country for another ? No, let the occupation last, we'll see how long it lasts..Maybe because that's how America was formed you see this differently, but a country like Egypt has existed for thousands of years, to abandon my heritage just because I live in another country is something you'll see non doing. "I could start "America" anywhere." As I've said, that's the difference between us and you..

Quote :

Really? Not all liked or approved of Hitler and the way he did things in Germany during his reign. There loyalties were not with the Germany of that time. But once the Nazis were defeated their loyalties returned to Germany and hope in starting anew. It is situational. It is not always black and white. There are some grey areas.

Dont miss-confuse disagreeing with the ruling power with abandoning loyalty, I mean, who the hell would be dis-loyal to his own country just because he doesnt agree with he who rules it !? IF so, then you never were loyal in the first place. One's loyalty to his country hasnt a grey area, you either are loyal for life, or you arent..

Rosalind wrote:

"And I assume becoming a citizen means getting the nationality and giving loyalty to the American flag, If a person (READ: CHOOSES) to do so then it's his own will, but no outsider to the country is forced to do so."

Right, this is the distinction between Citizen and visitor. You can apply for a Visa, I'm not sure on time restraints, but it permits you residence in that country for a limited time, but you will not be a citizen. This means you don't swear allegiance, but are still subject to the laws of the country. In addition, you cannot claim any benefits that you would as a citizen. In the UK, that means no free healthcare, no free dental treatment, no housing or job benefits, possibly (probably) no loan or mortgage allowance (though you can use a credit card from your homeland at a fixed charge), and you'd need to fill out the paperwork allowing you to find work and have that submitted.

As for changing things, this is EXACTLY what the argument is about. Muslims entered Switzerland and now are wanting minarets. The local population born there are having to accommodate to the desires of those who are moving there. If you move for work - and I mean move PERMANENTLY, and not for 3 months or however long until the Visa expires - then the country is offering you employment at a wage you could not receive in your home country. You don't need to move there for work, but you chose to.

Whether I'am on a visit, not citizen or a citizen, One should abide by the laws of that country under any circumstances.

Seriously, how would you know they want to change things ? ffs people are assuming that just because they want to build minarets! and what about Swiss naives embracing Islam, I'am sure their's a vast number of those, they also should be ignored ? one last question, you say I dont need to move there for work, then why ? If it were me I;d move their for that wage I couldnt get at home, until I make enough money to get back..

[quote="Mostafa"]

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So, by working and helping the economy of the country, paying taxes, becoming a law abiding citizen, not making up any trouble, I'am not showing gratitude ..? come on man, you should ask for one's soul next..

No you are being selfish. You want all the benefits and none of the sacrifice that may be asked for it. Mind you this is for CITIZENS ONLY. So there is no confusion.

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Because my loyalty lies to the country itself ! not the people running it. And as I've said, this is what seperates the western world from the eastern one, we have codes we live by, abandoning my loyalty to another country is something you'd rarely find someone doing around here, no matter what reason or excuse..

So your loyalties would rather belong to dirt and rocks then ideals and principles that can be instituted any where? That seem ass backwards to me. The forefathers that came to America gave up everything they had in England for religious freedom. Risking everything for it and having no idea of what lay ahead. But they knew that they would be free and that was worth the sacrifice. Not caring about rock and trees that they wanted back at home. America has codes and laws that we live by too. Americans do not just abandon their country. In fact you will find it is much the opposite. Not to many American killing themselves to get over to the Middle East. But many from the Middle East are trying to get here. When that changes then you can speak to me about your country mens loyalties and codes.

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That's the cost of having ethics and morals to live by. Choosing to abandon one's country for another ? No, let the occupation last, we'll see how long it lasts..Maybe because that's how America was formed you see this differently, but a country like Egypt has existed for thousands of years, to abandon my heritage just because I live in another country is something you'll see non doing. "I could start "America" anywhere." As I've said, that's the difference between us and you..

Again America has ethics and morals that we live by also. So get off your high horse thinking that if we all don't follow the Muslim way we are all heathens and unethical. Your pride and willing to cling to rocks and twigs will be your downfall. Instead of trying to prosper you would rather kill each other off so that some piece of land could be yours. Until of course a bigger army comes in a kills you and the cycle starts all over. That is not loyalty, that is blind allegiance.

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Dont miss-confuse disagreeing with the ruling power with abandoning loyalty, I mean, who the hell would be dis-loyal to his own country just because he doesnt agree with he who rules it !? IF so, then you never were loyal in the first place. One's loyalty to his country hasnt a grey area, you either are loyal for life, or you arent..

But the circumstance that may affect your loyalty is a gray area. Your "love it or leave it" attitude will get you no where. To keep your loyalty to a country that has kicked you out or one that you have abandoned to gain freedoms that that country did not offer is ludicrous and short sighted. If it was such a great country and so wonderful to live and full of opportunities then why leave? If it was because you were forced out, then why love it? My ancestors were Irish. Most likely coming to America during the potato famine. This was not a genocide or a forced mass exodus. They left so as not to die even though many stayed. While I am sure they were proud of Ireland and their home land. This did not stop many of them from enlisting in the military in the Civl War, WW1, and WW2(which my grandfather served). There is an entire race of people leaving their home land not because they were forced or made to leave because of religious practices. But this did not stop them from defending their new homeland when asked. That is loyalty. What you want with getting all that is good but none of the sacrifice. That is selfish.

Now I want to say again. I am talking about those who ARE, or WISH TO BE, CITIZENS of America or any country to which they were not born. Less there be any more confusion.

Mostafa: You're the only one whose mentioned ethics, morals, and abandonment. I am not my country. I am loyal to it, but if I were to leave it I wouldn't suddenly lose my sense of morality, and I'm secure enough in who I am to not let anything define that. You're right, there is a difference between the East and the West; you wont find the West defining who they are by their place of birth.

Assumption? No, there is not an assumption. There are protesters in the streets, demonstrators and pamphleteers and petitions to try for change. There is the observations of secluded areas where certain nationalities flock together. There are more mosques in London than any other major European city - they are beginning to rival the number of churches - most of which have been built within the last 50 years, replacing churches that are being closed down through lack of funding. I'd count that as accommodating a pretty damn major change. Whether its intentional on the behalf of each citizen or not, their segregation is causing change in a country catering for them, just so they can abuse it and leave. Same thing if you moved here for work, you'd just be abusing the benefits of living in the country. It'd still be offering you something you couldn't get from your homeland, and you'd still be disrespecting that fact. Foreigners coming into the country will always cause tension, and they cost the government billions in attempting to satisfy their needs. I don't think showing a little love to a country willing to put all that effort in is a lot to ask.