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The Occult, Esoterica, ect. |
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AarO)))n
Hellbent for Lifer
Posts : 2140
Join date : 2009-09-06
Age : 46
Location : Los Angeles WEST SIDE BITCHES
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:06 am |
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- Kamikaze wrote:
- Who's to say these higher forms of life don't have something like the Prime Directive from Star Trek? What if all they can do is observe and not make contact? I'm not trying to force you to believe in extraterrestrials as there is no hard proof, but being a healthy skeptic also means being open to all possibilities as well. It is possible that some UFOs are ET craft and one cannot rule this out simply because of lack of evidence.
As I said to Alex. Yes there is a possibility. But there is a possibility that I may become an NBA star at the age of 32. Though I doubt it. If your beliefs are built from the foundation of "possibilities", then nothing is out of reason. I don't think your crazy to think it. But to be this much into it seems weird to me. Now my assumption is that you find it interesting and you are a well read person and one that collects knowledge about a great many things. But the man hours wasted on this by you and so many others is sad. Considering there are real problems to be tackled right here on THIS planet and that your talents and the others could be used to help these out and not worry about ET and Marvin the Martian.
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Nautilus
Mantooth
Posts : 526
Join date : 2009-09-06
Age : 33
Location : moonlight is bleeding out of your soul.
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:39 am |
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- AarO)))n wrote:
- Nautilus wrote:
- If I had the technology to explore space and saw all human transmissions (all the violence in our news/tv shows/movies, etc.) I wouldn't bother with us either. There's a reason that's such a commonly used sci-fi trope.
- Quote :
- Don't question and don't think for yourself. You are some how better because you are more gullible and quick to believe? I don't think so.
Nobody's saying that at all. It's kinda standard procedure though in a lot of Christian churches, which is why most of the more intelligent ones refuse to adhere to their arbitrary dogmas. :[
Right because we humans are so awful right? Never capable of compassion or kindness. Please. I know you as a christian believe that we are all born into sin and are therefore flawed and horrible people. That the only way to change that is threw accepting Jesus. But I do not. Neither do I. Humans are capable of vast horrors, but they're also possible for great good. Humans are flawed, in that we're not absolutely perfect, but as a whole we're not horrible. Too many people just leave it up to "God's plan" the things they should do themselves, which is really just a lazy and immature way of living your life. Sometimes, God does have a plan but you're not supposed to just passively waste away. - Quote :
- I think we humans are capable of great things and in our time of need (9/11,WWII,Oklahoma City Bombing to name a few) We have shown the true human spirit. For christians you want this world to be shit, because in the end you could care less what happens to it. You are playing for the end game. Because all you want is to die and go to heaven.
What is the "true human spirit" anyway? Good things, and horrible things can both happen. In the wake of tragedies, as you mentioned, and the tragedies themselves. I believe God gave us this world and this life, it's our duty to take care of it best as we can and to work together as human beings to create a better world. I mean yeah, I can do the best I can but in the end I don't know. I know I've done some things that theoretically would send me to hell, and some things that theoretically would send me to heaven. But it's not really something I can control. When I die I die, and I could go either way. Or I could go to Valhalla, or Olympus, or whatever other religion maybe, or something else entirely. Or nothing at all. Maybe when I die I'll just rot in the ground. But at the end of the day I'm going to die, and we're all going to die. Sure, I'd like to go to heaven - wouldn't that be nice? It beats out eternal torture and damnation, for sure. But in the end it's not my choice to make. The only thing I can do is live my life the best way I can, and whatever happens will happen. It's something I can't control - THAT's an example of what "God's plan" for me would be. - Quote :
- So spare me this "Our society is so horrible. Just watch T.V. and you will see." bullshit. T.V. exist to get ratings and finds the stories to get it. They are not interested in real news.
The point I'm making, is that an outside force, aliens, wouldn't necessarily know that. They would know NOTHING of our culture. Hell, I'd be scared to initiate contact with humans, having watched all the crazy sci-fi shit that we do to "aliens" in our movies. - Quote :
- IF there are outside beings then why have they not contacted us and yet we contact them as much as possible?
Maybe they haven't found us yet. Why do you doubt so much?
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AarO)))n
Hellbent for Lifer
Posts : 2140
Join date : 2009-09-06
Age : 46
Location : Los Angeles WEST SIDE BITCHES
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:31 am |
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"Maybe they haven't found us yet. Why do you doubt so much?" I doubt so much because there is no proof. Simple as that. I see no reason to burn the calories worrying or caring about something there is no proof for. The day there is proof, I will care. This goes for god, aliens, bigfoot, lochness, moon landings, assassinations, or any other (for the most part) baseless, factless, belief.
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Nautilus
Mantooth
Posts : 526
Join date : 2009-09-06
Age : 33
Location : moonlight is bleeding out of your soul.
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:35 am |
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AarO)))n
Hellbent for Lifer
Posts : 2140
Join date : 2009-09-06
Age : 46
Location : Los Angeles WEST SIDE BITCHES
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:38 am |
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- Nautilus wrote:
- How... boring. :[
It isn't to say that it is not interesting. I watch the occasional documentary or program about them. But when it is over I am over it. So many of these problems with the world that you have described. Why bother with these and not try and solve the real problems.
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Nautilus
Mantooth
Posts : 526
Join date : 2009-09-06
Age : 33
Location : moonlight is bleeding out of your soul.
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:03 am |
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I would certainly say it's a real issue in the world, the need to work together and create the world a better place. Damn, I sound like a hippie.
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AarO)))n
Hellbent for Lifer
Posts : 2140
Join date : 2009-09-06
Age : 46
Location : Los Angeles WEST SIDE BITCHES
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:37 am |
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- Nautilus wrote:
- I would certainly say it's a real issue in the world, the need to work together and create the world a better place. Damn, I sound like a hippie.
How does hoping for alien life forms and wasting time figuring out if there are any, become a REAL issue? World hunger and world peace are REAL issues. Not the existence of E.T.
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Nautilus
Mantooth
Posts : 526
Join date : 2009-09-06
Age : 33
Location : moonlight is bleeding out of your soul.
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:45 am |
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Whoa, I didn't say hoping for alien life forms or any of that.
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AarO)))n
Hellbent for Lifer
Posts : 2140
Join date : 2009-09-06
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:48 am |
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- Nautilus wrote:
- Whoa, I didn't say hoping for alien life forms or any of that.
Then what are you say? Where you not questioning why I was so dismissive of the thought of alien life or UFO's? Also, didn't you say they were REAL issues? What am I missing?
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Nautilus
Mantooth
Posts : 526
Join date : 2009-09-06
Age : 33
Location : moonlight is bleeding out of your soul.
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:16 pm |
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I never claimed that they were REAL issues, I'm just saying why be so pessimistic about it? It's not like I'm one of those crazy conspiracy theorists who is constantly searching out alien life. That's not even healthy. There's no need to be "ZOMG THE ALIENZZZ" but also there's no need to vehemently deny it. A balance is key, really. Personally I'm fascinated by space and astronomy, so it's something I wonder about from time to time, and I certainly hope it's true. Wouldn't that be so cool to meet an alien? But it's not defining my life, by any means? Sure, it's got no practical use, but neither does this forum or your badger... thing, you know? It's just something I find fun and interesting.
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AarO)))n
Hellbent for Lifer
Posts : 2140
Join date : 2009-09-06
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Location : Los Angeles WEST SIDE BITCHES
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:24 pm |
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- Nautilus wrote:
- I never claimed that they were REAL issues, I'm just saying why be so pessimistic about it? It's not like I'm one of those crazy conspiracy theorists who is constantly searching out alien life. That's not even healthy. There's no need to be "ZOMG THE ALIENZZZ" but also there's no need to vehemently deny it. A balance is key, really. Personally I'm fascinated by space and astronomy, so it's something I wonder about from time to time, and I certainly hope it's true. Wouldn't that be so cool to meet an alien? But it's not defining my life, by any means?
Sure, it's got no practical use, but neither does this forum or your badger... thing, you know? It's just something I find fun and interesting. Fun and interesting is fine. As I said, I too find it interesting. Space and astronomy are interesting to me also. but that does not mean I have to believe in aliens. But the moment I said I don't believe it and think it is horseshit, I am told how illogical I am and that because I don't believe in the giant maybe that there is something wrong with my thinking. I vehemently deny it because there is no proof. I don't have time for maybes. I want concrete. P.S. Leave the badger out of this. He has done nothing to you but entertain you with his swing meat.
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Rosalind
Caretaker of Chaos
Posts : 1632
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Age : 35
Location : UK
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:33 pm |
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- AarO)))n wrote:
- And I say again. If this "logic' was applied to a "god", how quickly would that theory be struck down? To say that because there is no proof and to think we are alone is silly, does not prove a thing. What you have is the same as anyone who follows a religion, FAITH. You choose to believe that there "must" be life out there. Why? Because it is so big and vast? Not good enough for me. I take very little on faith. I want proof. If there is life out there why has it not tried to contact us? Yet we constantly try and find them. Sorry, say what you like. But until you produce proof, I have no reason to believe based on the size of the universe. By proof I mean REAL proof. Not, "We can't explain it so it must be aliens." proof. I want concrete evidence before I waste any time believing.
Its not a law of proof, but a law of probability. Of an estimated 10,000 planets capable of supporting life, only one actually houses it? The probability is VERY high that at least one of those planets has life on it. Proof? Undeniable fact? Of course not. Just an overwhelming statistic, like saying theres a 2% chance of Bidwell one day becoming underweight, or a 99% chance that im going to die before I hit 100 years old. Its probability. Under the same logic, what is the probability of gods existence? This becomes a little more tricky being as he's something of a hypocritical bastard. - William L. Rowe (paraphrased) wrote:
If God is Omnipotent, then he is capable of doing anything. If God is Omniscient, then he knows everything that will occur and has occurred. If God is Omnipresent, then he is everywhere and capable of preventing any disaster without initiating another.
Therefore, if God does exist, then he allows disaster to happen. Either his existance becomes unprobable, or he is someone I wish would damn well bugger off. Nobody can say with absolute certainty for either situation, but from a logical, mathematical point of view, the former is probable and the latter improbable
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AarO)))n
Hellbent for Lifer
Posts : 2140
Join date : 2009-09-06
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Location : Los Angeles WEST SIDE BITCHES
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:53 pm |
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- Rosalind wrote:
- AarO)))n wrote:
- And I say again. If this "logic' was applied to a "god", how quickly would that theory be struck down? To say that because there is no proof and to think we are alone is silly, does not prove a thing. What you have is the same as anyone who follows a religion, FAITH. You choose to believe that there "must" be life out there. Why? Because it is so big and vast? Not good enough for me. I take very little on faith. I want proof. If there is life out there why has it not tried to contact us? Yet we constantly try and find them. Sorry, say what you like. But until you produce proof, I have no reason to believe based on the size of the universe. By proof I mean REAL proof. Not, "We can't explain it so it must be aliens." proof. I want concrete evidence before I waste any time believing.
Its not a law of proof, but a law of probability.
Of an estimated 10,000 planets capable of supporting life, only one actually houses it? The probability is VERY high that at least one of those planets has life on it. Proof? Undeniable fact? Of course not. Just an overwhelming statistic, like saying theres a 2% chance of Bidwell one day becoming underweight, or a 99% chance that im going to die before I hit 100 years old. Its probability.
Under the same logic, what is the probability of gods existence? This becomes a little more tricky being as he's something of a hypocritical bastard.
- William L. Rowe (paraphrased) wrote:
If God is Omnipotent, then he is capable of doing anything. If God is Omniscient, then he knows everything that will occur and has occurred. If God is Omnipresent, then he is everywhere and capable of preventing any disaster without initiating another.
Therefore, if God does exist, then he allows disaster to happen. Either his existance becomes unprobable, or he is someone I wish would damn well bugger off.
Nobody can say with absolute certainty for either situation, but from a logical, mathematical point of view, the former is probable and the latter improbable Wish in one hand and shit in the other. See which fills up faster. I know it is probable or possible. But so is anything really. So that does not prove anything. I guess in the end I just don't see what all the fuss is about. If there was one shred of evidence that something existed then I would be on board. But the fact is we are talking about "might". As in there "might" be life on other planets. Until I have concrete evidence my opinion will not change. The fact that scientist say it is so does not make me less skeptical. Science has been wrong from time to time. Though I am aware they are all we have. As for your quote on god. Totally agree. He is nothing more than a selfish asshole with emotional problems of not feeling loved enough. Not to mention the fact that we (according to the bible anyways) were set up for failure by god and then punished for it. But that is another debate.
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Rosalind
Caretaker of Chaos
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:00 pm |
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No probability. Im not talking Feynmanns rule on Quantum theory here (If it can be though, it can happen), but the likelihood of something happening. The odds of alien life existing is highly probable for the reasons already outlined. The odds of a God existing are perhaps less or more likely depending on the parameters used. (Theres an old religious-philosophical argument that says: "Every observable consequence has a cause. Hence life, and indeed the big bang itself must have too had a cause. This cause is what we call God." Its a rather vague argument, but certainly a plausible and indeed likely one, even if it defies what many would consider "God;" some unknown event that caused the consequences of a universe spiralling chaotically without his ability to intervene. Fun! God's incompetant! ).
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AarO)))n
Hellbent for Lifer
Posts : 2140
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:08 pm |
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- Rosalind wrote:
- No probability. Im not talking Feynmanns rule on Quantum theory here (If it can be though, it can happen), but the likelihood of something happening. The odds of alien life existing is highly probable for the reasons already outlined. The odds of a God existing are perhaps less or more likely depending on the parameters used.
(Theres an old religious-philosophical argument that says: "Every observable consequence has a cause. Hence life, and indeed the big bang itself must have too had a cause. This cause is what we call God." Its a rather vague argument, but certainly a plausible and indeed likely one, even if it defies what many would consider "God;" some unknown event that caused the consequences of a universe spiralling chaotically without his ability to intervene. Fun! God's incompetant! ). It is also highly probable that over time and through evolution that I may grow a tail or wings and fly. But it hasn't happened. Much like we have found no proof of life outside of our own. Believe me the moment there is I will believe. Just as the moment god reveals himself to me I will believe. I have not seen it therefore I do not believe it. Is it possible or even probable? Sure. But beyond that there is still nothing conclusive. Until then I am of the mindset that it is not worth much, if any, of my time. Though given the "evidence' presented i can see where some may give it attention and even believe. I am just not one of them.
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Rosalind
Caretaker of Chaos
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:25 pm |
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- AarO)))n wrote:
- It is also highly probable that over time and through evolution that I may grow a tail or wings and fly.
How the hell did you work that out? Seeing as evolution occurs over generations, and such an evolution as wings wouldn't help our survival, you believe it likely the theory of evolution is wrong. Assuming it is not future generations evolving but you over time, you believe it highly probably that in your lifespan of the best part of a million years that would be required for such an evolution (it took 250,000 to develop speech and larger heads. Growing wings? bit more extreme)...ummm yeah. No offence dude, you aint gonna be around to see your millionth year. Personally, I believe that all to be pretty damn improbable, but hey dont let that dampen your spirits. Keep your body in good health and when your sitting down with your great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandkids, celebrating your first millennium of existance you can tell them all of how I didn't believe you
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AarO)))n
Hellbent for Lifer
Posts : 2140
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:31 pm |
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- Rosalind wrote:
- AarO)))n wrote:
- It is also highly probable that over time and through evolution that I may grow a tail or wings and fly.
How the hell did you work that out?
Seeing as evolution occurs over generations, and such an evolution as wings wouldn't help our survival, you believe it likely the theory of evolution is wrong.
Assuming it is not future generations evolving but you over time, you believe it highly probably that in your lifespan of the best part of a million years that would be required for such an evolution (it took 250,000 to develop speech and larger heads. Growing wings? bit more extreme)...ummm yeah. No offence dude, you aint gonna be around to see your millionth year.
Personally, I believe that all to be pretty damn improbable, but hey dont let that dampen your spirits. Keep your body in good health and when your sitting down with your great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandkids, celebrating your first millennium of existance you can tell them all of how I didn't believe you My point was that there are many thing that can be labeled as "probable". While I don't think that I will grow wings, or necessarily believe in evolution, it could still be looked at as a probability. I am sorry if you took it to be literal. I was just using it as an example not as fact.
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Nautilus
Mantooth
Posts : 526
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:33 pm |
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- Quote :
- If God is Omnipotent, then he is capable of doing anything.
If God is Omniscient, then he knows everything that will occur and has occurred. If God is Omnipresent, then he is everywhere and capable of preventing any disaster without initiating another.
Therefore, if God does exist, then he allows disaster to happen. Either his existance becomes unprobable, or he is someone I wish would damn well bugger off. And so what if he does? He has his reasons. I can't comprehend God any more than an ant can comprehend a human.
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Abominog
Facilitator of Fury
Posts : 468
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Age : 55
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:36 pm |
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- AarO)))n wrote:
- Rosalind wrote:
- AarO)))n wrote:
- It is also highly probable that over time and through evolution that I may grow a tail or wings and fly.
How the hell did you work that out?
Seeing as evolution occurs over generations, and such an evolution as wings wouldn't help our survival, you believe it likely the theory of evolution is wrong.
Assuming it is not future generations evolving but you over time, you believe it highly probably that in your lifespan of the best part of a million years that would be required for such an evolution (it took 250,000 to develop speech and larger heads. Growing wings? bit more extreme)...ummm yeah. No offence dude, you aint gonna be around to see your millionth year.
Personally, I believe that all to be pretty damn improbable, but hey dont let that dampen your spirits. Keep your body in good health and when your sitting down with your great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandkids, celebrating your first millennium of existance you can tell them all of how I didn't believe you
My point was that there are many thing that can be labeled as "probable". While I don't think that I will grow wings, or necessarily believe in evolution, it could still be looked at as a probability. I am sorry if you took it to be literal. I was just using it as an example not as fact. I think that you are just being argumentative here Aaron. Probabilities and likelihoods are just that, and therefore should be relied upon to eventually bear fruit unto reality and fact. I think to doubt the existence of life elsewhere in the universe is naive. Now to doubt that it has ever visited Earth, that's another matter altogether.
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Rosalind
Caretaker of Chaos
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:42 pm |
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Aaron: My point being I considered improbable that it would happen. Alien life is probable. Ricard: Its just a paradoxical argument. The defence of "We cant comprehend it" only goes so far. As far as I see it, replacing one unfathomable theory (the big bang) with another, more difficult to comprehend theory (God) isn't really an answer, not to mention betrays Occams Razor. There are paradoxes for everything though. Im sure you know of the paradox of motion: In order to travel from A to B I first need to hit the mid-point, C. Then the midpoint between C and B (lets call it D). Then the mid-point of that, ad nauseum, resulting in the fact we can never truly reach B. Its bollocks of course, but difficult to disprove theoretically. John: Completely agree. Without any knowledge of where the life is, or indeed their capabilities of travelling far enough to see us we have nothing to base a probability on. Truly unknowable.
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Nautilus
Mantooth
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:46 pm |
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- Rosalind wrote:
- Aaron: My point being I considered improbable that it would happen. Alien life is probable.
Ricard: Its just a paradoxical argument. The defence of "We cant comprehend it" only goes so far. As far as I see it, replacing one unfathomable theory (the big bang) with another, more difficult to comprehend theory (God) isn't really an answer, not to mention betrays Occams Razor. - Quote :
- There are paradoxes for everything though. Im sure you know of the paradox of motion:
In order to travel from A to B I first need to hit the mid-point, C. Then the midpoint between C and B (lets call it D). Then the mid-point of that, ad nauseum, resulting in the fact we can never truly reach B. Its bollocks of course, but difficult to disprove theoretically. Yeah yeah, that's some calculus thing, right? I remember that.
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AarO)))n
Hellbent for Lifer
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:47 pm |
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Rosalind
Caretaker of Chaos
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:53 pm |
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- Nautilus wrote:
- Rosalind wrote:
- Aaron: My point being I considered improbable that it would happen. Alien life is probable.
Ricard: Its just a paradoxical argument. The defence of "We cant comprehend it" only goes so far. As far as I see it, replacing one unfathomable theory (the big bang) with another, more difficult to comprehend theory (God) isn't really an answer, not to mention betrays Occams Razor.
- Quote :
- There are paradoxes for everything though. Im sure you know of the paradox of motion:
In order to travel from A to B I first need to hit the mid-point, C. Then the midpoint between C and B (lets call it D). Then the mid-point of that, ad nauseum, resulting in the fact we can never truly reach B. Its bollocks of course, but difficult to disprove theoretically. Yeah yeah, that's some calculus thing, right? I remember that. Occams Razor = "The simplest solution is the most likely." Its a principle I believe it, but isn't fact. I assumed people knew what it was, my mistake As for the paradox of motion, not really. It can be used to describe the fallacy of "Simpsons Rule" (Its a way of integrating a function - basically taking strips under a curve and adding up the area's underneath each one. You would need an infinite number of strips to get bang on the answer, theoretically. Most simpler curves simply give the right answer, or something so damn close you'd be retarded not to round up that 1/100th of a decimal place).
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Bidley
Facilitator of Fury
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:00 pm |
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Rosalind
Caretaker of Chaos
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Subject: Re: The Occult, Esoterica, ect. Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:02 pm |
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Carl: Agreed somewhat. I don't have faith, and I don't view this as a choice. Its simply isnt there. Im too hellbent on requiring facts or at least a good probable theory, having the ability to 'know the unknowable' can be seen as a disadvantage, as Im pretty sure I'll never truly be able to understand it; it just doesn't make sense to me.
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