Rosalind wrote:

Monk: Close to being true. I don't have the theory terminology, but chord formations have to be within the same scale (?) so as to work without sounding off. A chord progression is thus in some way built around these scales, as are most riffs.

Ok, that made no sense. Wheres that one-inch-eight-wanged wanker when you need him?

No! Big woopsy Bawds.

All chords are formed from the major scale, yes minor diminished etc.

Let's take C minor. Take the C major scale, it's very simple. Minor chords are the root, the FLAT third and the fifth. Take the root, stick it in the chord, take the fifth put it in the chord. Take the third and lower it by a semitone and put it in the chord. That's how you find the chords. All chords have a set 'formula' that you have to follow to find them but you must MUST use the major scale or everything goes tits up.

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Monk: Close to being true. I don't have the theory terminology, but chord formations have to be within the same scale (?) so as to work without sounding off. A chord progression is thus in some way built around these scales, as are most riffs.

Ok, that made no sense. Wheres that one-inch-eight-wanged wanker when you need him?

No! Big woopsy Bawds.

All chords are formed from the major scale, yes minor diminished etc.

Let's take C minor. Take the C major scale, it's very simple. Minor chords are the root, the FLAT third and the fifth. Take the root, stick it in the chord, take the fifth put it in the chord. Take the third and lower it by a semitone and put it in the chord. That's how you find the chords. All chords have a set 'formula' that you have to follow to find them but you must MUST use the major scale or everything goes tits up.

well technically each chord is based on the root, third and fifth of its own scale. C major after C major scale, C minor after C minor scale, Bb half-diminished over the Bb half-diminished scale. But yeah, the easiest way to express it in common terms is through the major scale.

From there, each chord progression is based off a scale. I don't know the methodology behind it, but depending on the type of chord you have your root with, each of the individual notes will also follow the pattern of a scale. Much like how scales can be expressed as 1st, major 2nd, major 3rd, perfect 4th, perfect 5th, major 6th, major 7th, and octave - a chord progression can be mapped out similarly. For example the blues I-IV-V7 progression, or the common jazz turnaround ii-V7-I. Just like scales, chord progressions are movable depending on the intervals used.

Also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSXuD3CQBqM

So pretty much, a chord progression is a scale. Only with chords.

Alright so, I've got to learn some scales. Will that really help much?

Yes. Learn at least the basic major and minor scales and learn the patterns in them. You'll be able to work on the harmonies like that - a "3rd harmony", for example, is the third note up in that scale from the current note.

I started work on the funk chords. Aka, maj9 and maj13 formations.

How in gods name do you quickly flatten three strings with your third finger whilst still being to arch the 2nd

Also, any other hints welcome. Muting all those strings all the time is surprisingly tiring. Neo-classical I can do but funk hurts the wrist >.<

Don't bother with trivial notes like the 5th and the root if you don't have to, for the bigger chords. Like if I'm playing a 9th chord I'll just play the root and the ninth itself. Work on "stripping down" your chords so you can play them with as few notes as possible, in a simple shape.

5th's work well as a nice variety to the style but it sounds fairly different to 9th. And I don't want to change my configuration because it only requires a single new fret to turn into a 13th.

Wait...which ones the root and which ones the ninth?

The basic shape im using for a 9th is:

e - 5
B - 5
G - 5
D - 4
A - 5
E - x

See, that's a good shape. It's not bad if you're gonna have to hold on that chord for a while. If it's quick though, try something like

e - x
B - 5
G - 5
D - x
A - 5
E - x

^ D9. If you want you can put that F# on the D string, 4th fret back in but it's not as necessary and you don't have to tie up your fingers. This shape is good for 9 chords with the root on the 5th string.

or

e - 7
B - 5
G - 6
D - 7
A - x
E - x

^ This is a shape for an A9. Good for stuff with the root on the fourth string. An alternate way would be to play

e - 7
B - 8 <---- adding in the seventh there. The seventh isn't extremely necessary for a 9 chord but it helps give a lot of flavor.
G - 6
D - 7
A - x
E - x

Or even as simple a shape as

e - x
B - x
G - 9
D - 7
A - 5
E - x

^ This last one is much like a "power chord" and can be transferred practically anywhere.

A "fuller" 9 chord with all the strings would be like,

e - 5
B - 3
G - 4
D - 3
A - 5
E - 3

You'll be barring the third fret there for this G9, with the root on the sixth string. It's pretty much a regular bar chord, only with the pinky moved to the first fret.

See, THIS is why you learn scales and you learn your fretboard. As notes, not patterns. That way you can construct these chords from the ground up. If you know that a 9 chord, for example, contains the root, third, fifth, flat-seventh, and ninth note of the scale, you can figure out which notes of the scale those are and then make a chord. So for a G9 the notes are G (root), B (third note in the scale), D (fifth in the scale), F (flatted seventh note), and A (ninth note).

So your notes are G - B - D - F - A. Let's look at that chord again -

e - 5 (A)
B - 3 (D)
G - 4 (B)
D - 3 (F)
A - 5 (D)
E - 3 (G)

Got all the notes? Looks like it, that's a G9. And from there if you want to make it even simpler just cut out notes. The root and fifth are the easiest to cut out first, because they don't give the note any of that tonal jazzy quality. So a G9 can just as easily be

e - 5
B - 3
G - 4
D - 3
A - x
E - x

There, I just cut out like half the chord for you. It doesn't sound as bassy, granted but you've still got the "meat" of the chord well-taken care of. With jazz, the fewer fingers you have on the guitar the better. You've got to move as fast as you can so the absolute BEST way is to learn, at least, which notes are the notes you're aiming for.

If you must, play only the root and the ninth. I do that half the time - I played a song in church today which has a G9, so I just played this a couple of times -

e - 5
B - x
G - x
D - x
A - x
E - 3

It's the simplest, easiest and most stripped down version of the 9 chord. Another would be that "power chord" variation I showed above. The chord contains all those notes, the R 3 5 b7 9, but at the end of the day you only really need to play SOMEthing that fits into it.

There's a big thing called "tritone substitution" which I won't get into because I don't entirely understand it either, but it helps to get into the context of chords. Essentially, like I said, you only really need to play something that fits. If you find another chord that's nominally completely different but has the same notes, it still fits. That's how the relative minor works - A minor with C major, E minor with G major, C# minor with E major, and so on. They're still the same notes, just with a different root and voicing.

Already knew about the barre (though I often felt they were too rigid) and the 'extended power' chord (good for variation on the power, but hasn't got enough breadth to the sound imo), but that first A9 shape was interesting.

I've never had a music lesson in my life. I've never gone through the arts in a mathematical way just as i've never approached science in an emotional way; it seems counter intuitive for such situations, and whilst it probably would be helpful in some areas, I've always just 'played around' to find the sounds I like. If you can't hear when a sequence of notes or chord harmonises, then what the hell are you doing playing music?

Its only now that im branching into a genre thats largely alien to me (not based on rock) that im finding a lot of my knowledge is useless

I need Effing guitar lessons and no matter how much I bug my mom to get me some. She just says alright but never does a gosh dang thing.

Mantooth901 wrote:

I need Effing guitar lessons and no matter how much I bug my mom to get me some. She just says alright but never does a gosh dang thing.

You can pick up a book which has most of the scales and chords in to begin with.

I've had a bass for a few years but never really learned anything beyond just memorizing tabs for certain songs, and I kind of want to get started actaully figuring out how to play. Do most of the basics for learning guitar (learning scales and chords and all that stuff) also apply for learning bass? Is it just like an easier version of learning guitar, or is there anything else you would need to do differently?

Sign of the Black Mark wrote:

I've had a bass for a few years but never really learned anything beyond just memorizing tabs for certain songs, and I kind of want to get started actaully figuring out how to play. Do most of the basics for learning guitar (learning scales and chords and all that stuff) also apply for learning bass? Is it just like an easier version of learning guitar, or is there anything else you would need to do differently?

Most/all of the theory should be identical, its just the practices that would differ. Id also expect scales to be more important than chords tbh, and if you finger pick, its well worth practicing the pop/slap technique as its a relatively simple (once you get the hang of it anyway) way of adding variety to a bass riff. Mark King practically invented the style for it. Example.

How does the whole pouint/counterpoint stuff work?

The Entity wrote:

How does the whole pouint/counterpoint stuff work?

Counterpoint = two melodies at the same time, moving in different directions. One will be going up, one will be going down. It's similar to harmony but harmony generally isn't two seperate melodies, per se.

How is it possible to play:

x x
x x
x x
9 10
2 3
x x etc.

I don't have Inspector Gadget fingers. I can reach down only 5 frets (e.g. 2nd and 7th frets).

Neon_Knight_ wrote:

How is it possible to play:

x x
x x
x x
9 10
2 3
x x etc.

I don't have Inspector Gadget fingers. I can reach down only 5 frets (e.g. 2nd and 7th frets).

x x
x x
4 5
x x
2 6
x x

You can mute the string with your index, though the tone will be off slightly, I agree its impossible otherwise.

Rosalind wrote:

x x
x x
4 5
x x
2 6
x x

You can mute the string with your index, though the tone will be off slightly, I agree its impossible otherwise.

So I'm supposed to play it by not playing it?
Those are chords from an official Metallica music book, so they must have giant hands.

Neon_Knight_ wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

x x
x x
4 5
x x
2 6
x x

You can mute the string with your index, though the tone will be off slightly, I agree its impossible otherwise.

So I'm supposed to play it by not playing it?
Those are chords from an official Metallica music book, so they must have giant hands.

Well you know in standard tuning the fifth fret should be the same pitch as the string below it, so just skip a string and play the other 5 lower. That's what id do anyway. The only other option I can see is a 7 string, tuning the string closer to you.

Neon_Knight_ wrote:

I don't have Inspector Gadget fingers.

I found this incredibly funny for no real reason.

Rosalind wrote:

Sign of the Black Mark wrote:

I've had a bass for a few years but never really learned anything beyond just memorizing tabs for certain songs, and I kind of want to get started actaully figuring out how to play. Do most of the basics for learning guitar (learning scales and chords and all that stuff) also apply for learning bass? Is it just like an easier version of learning guitar, or is there anything else you would need to do differently?

Most/all of the theory should be identical, its just the practices that would differ. Id also expect scales to be more important than chords tbh, and if you finger pick, its well worth practicing the pop/slap technique as its a relatively simple (once you get the hang of it anyway) way of adding variety to a bass riff. Mark King practically invented the style for it. Example.

I would say that chords are still important, just, rather than strumming the chord arpeggiating is more important. so learn the chords, but the notes don't necessarily have to be on different strings for example: for a minor chord you could play: 0 - 3 - 5 on the same string. or like 5 on the e string and 3 - 5 on the a string (assuming you're in standard tuning) etc...