Ahmedeus wrote:

No, Aaron, you are refusing to see it any other way.

"How exactly are the record companies and artist not being stolen from exactly?"

Because their bank accounts remain the same.

Stealing is only stealing if it matters. I'm not guilty of anything. I don't need to clear my conscience. I'm just someone who doesn't believe money should matter when it comes to music. Whether it's my own or someone else's.

If I could just throw in my

It IS theft, because you are denying them the payment in return for the service they provide you. You are using what they made and not paying. And, you know, the law disagrees with you. They need money to keep paying for recording costs, musical instruments etc. Not paying for their product is robbing them of the possible resources they need to make more. I understand it not being supposed to be about money, but it IS called the music INDUSTRY. By not paying you are virtually telling them: you have to pay for me to enjoy your work. That can`t be fair, can it?

Ahmedeus wrote:

No, Aaron, you are refusing to see it any other way.

"How exactly are the record companies and artist not being stolen from exactly?"

Because their bank accounts remain the same.

Stealing is only stealing if it matters. I'm not guilty of anything. I don't need to clear my conscience. I'm just someone who doesn't believe money should matter when it comes to music. Whether it's my own or someone else's.

Because Ahmed. There is no other way of seeing it. IT IS STEALING! This is not a matter of opinion this is fact and LAW. There bank accounts are out $10-$12 every time you steal one of their records. That is money that help the bands you say you love. Thomas has pointed that out to you and other numerous time. These bands we love are not looking to be rich. They are looking to make a living making music and creating things that other may enjoy. I don't feel I have wasted any money on the thousands of albums I have bought over the years. Even the ones I traded in or gave away. They served a a message about those bands and it is all part of the experience of buy music. Buying albums makes me feel I am a part of the club if you will. When they tour or release their next album I feel like I helped. When I meet these people this is why they are so thankful and humble to their fans. They know that you are helping to truly support them and their art. I for one am happy to do that no matter the cost. I spent $15 to see Shrinebulider. I got to meet and talk with Wino, Scott Kelly, Al Cisneros and others from other bands I like that were there for the show. FOR $15! I would have paid that much just to meet Wino and paid $1000 to see the show. It is not about the money. It is about the experience and the music. Paying for the music is just part of the deal, and I am happy to do so. Your money for their product is your way of showing love and support for their art. You say you love this music. Well try giving it something that shows that. Because stealing it so you can play video games and do the things you would rather spend it on, make it so the bands you love can not do those things.

The fact is stealing it is cheaper than buying it. It works out for you so what do you care. Whether you admit it or not is not the point. Whether you accept it or not is not the point. You are stealing. Says the law. All your excuses and rationalization will get you no where if you are caught.

I wonder if you would feel the same if I stole some of you pictures you have taken and sold them as my own? Doubt it. True you may not be profiting from the music. But like me, you are stealing it.

Ahmedeus wrote:

No, Aaron, you are refusing to see it any other way.

"How exactly are the record companies and artist not being stolen from exactly?"

Because their bank accounts remain the same.

Stealing is only stealing if it matters. I'm not guilty of anything. I don't need to clear my conscience. I'm just someone who doesn't believe money should matter when it comes to music. Whether it's my own or someone else's.

Recording costs.

Christoff Odendaal wrote:

If I could just throw in my

It IS theft, because you are denying them the payment in return for the service they provide you. You are using what they made and not paying. And, you know, the law disagrees with you. They need money to keep paying for recording costs, musical instruments etc. Not paying for their product is robbing them of the possible resources they need to make more. I understand it not being supposed to be about money, but it IS called the music INDUSTRY. By not paying you are virtually telling them: you have to pay for me to enjoy your work. That can`t be fair, can it?

Well said.

Ahmedeus wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Ahmedeus wrote:

I download music [for free] because I am broke most of the time. Why should money come in between me and a band I love? Forget "stealing" and "piracy" for a moment. Would a band rather have many fans or a few rich fans?

Even if I bought CDs, I would have to rip them into my computer, (time consuming), and then convert them into MP3s if I want to listen to it on my MP3 player (even more time consuming).

I represent the people who genuinely love music but are lazy and would rather spend their money elsewhere. Music buyers are the cause of the piracy problem. They are the ones who buy CDs and upload them on the internet

I think a band would like to be able to make enough to earn a comfortable wage from doing what they enjoy. You don't need to be rich to afford $10 for an album. As for ripping it takes me about a minute to rip a CD to .mp3 files. One button in WMP. Not that I really consider that the issue. I want the artist to keep making music, and I actually like having the physical copy; observing the artwork, reading the notes and lyrics and so on. Having no income is one thing, but justifying it by simply saying you don't want to support them just seems backhanded to me.

You have 200 Cds, which means you've spent 2000 pounds or dollars if each album is for 10. What about John/Aaron and the others? They have literally thousands of albums. Just ask them. Add that up and you get a ridiculous amount of money (for me). You're saying I have to spent 10,000 bucks if I want to be a metalhead?

Sure, I feel like I owe the bands who produce the music I love, but I have other hobbies and responsibilities. Me being a fan should be enough.

I know this, but nothing in this world comes free. The musicians I love are doing me a service, and I love the genre enough to want to financially support them (my own funds permitting) so that they can continue to make the music. I'm not saying you should spend any specific amount of money to be any kind of music fan, just about everyone here bar a few are guilty of downloading music and later not buying the physical album at some point, I just think its more than a little hypocritical to claim to be a fan of the genre and then refuse to support those who work to create it. I can't afford a fraction of the albums I would like to own, but the key difference is one of us is willing to try.

Rosalind wrote:

Ahmedeus wrote:

Arrgh. It is NOT FUCKING STEALING! When I download a free album, it does not hurt the band. No money has been put into those Mp3s, only on physical CDs. You can make infinite amount of copies of Mp3s, they have no value. I am an invisible fan. Those who want to buy will buy. Invisibles do not affect a band in any way.

Did I buy their music? No. But something has to be taken from person B in order for it to be theft. I'm not claiming that their music is my property, I'm not breaking into stores and pocketing CDs, I'm not taking money from them. Therefore, it is not stealing or theft.

As far as law goes, it isn't/shouldn't be a crime. If it is a crime in your country/state, that law is not enforced, or we'd all be getting jailed or fined. And I don't know one person who has been.

...You're kidding right?

The cost to make a physical CD - the CD box, actually copy the information, pay the artist for the artwork and print it - is almost negligible in the overall cost of production. We're talking 50p per CD maximum here. The money put into those files you conveniently copy from one place to another is the cost make that very first copy. If nobody buys the album, either the label will no longer keep the artist on board, forcing them to foot the bill themselves or (the more likely option) fold until a new label signs them. If the label keeps on enough unprofitable artists, the label will fold and even more artists will go under. And even if the artist does everything themselves, they wont make back the production costs making it VERY difficult to foot the bill themselves. I'd have thought of all people you'd have realised this, but let me put this in black and white: the cost of the recording studio, session musicians, producer, rental instruments/equipment, as well as the living costs; rent, food and so on. You think all that comes free?

"something has to be taken from person B in order for it to be theft."

Go look up copyright laws sometime. If you write and record a piece of music, it is legally yours. If someone acquires that recording without either payment or your express permission, it is theft. The same applies to software - about 75% of photoshop users have stolen it apparently - and films. You can argue ethics, try to rationalise it and even attempt to justify it, but it is a crime - irrespective of whether you agree or not - because it is theft. The law is not negotiable, and has been enforced. The will to enforce it isn't the problem, its the means. The sheer volume of users makes it almost impossible to enforce en masse.

But people do! It still works, there are still thousands of bands, hundreds of labels, and people buy albums. A number of bands (recently Gama Bomb), have proven that CDs sales don't matter nearly as much as performing live. You CAN give away your music for free and still survive. Your "oh labels will drop bands" doesn't work. You know the bands that separated because nobody bought their albums? Maybe they sucked, have you thought about that? Yeah, blame it on Napster.

It does not, I agree. Making fifty copies of CDs costs the band. Making fifty copies of Mp3s doesn't. So Mp3s have no money value.
How am I wrong in this?

(By the way, just because I download for free, I don't think everyone should, obviously. I have a Hobbesian view to everything else but this because, well, the music "business" will perish without buyers.)

You can't try to explain this with laws that change every couple hundred miles across the world. Piracy is not a crime in my home country (I'm serious, it's really not), so does that mean I can download for free? Laws hardly matter when it comes to this. So let's keep it simple. X takes something from Y without his consent. That is stealing by definition. That something had no value, is it still stealing? This is assuming that other people have already bought a few of Y's albums, and the money he spent recording has come back to him.

Ahmedeus wrote:

You can't try to explain this with laws that change every couple hundred miles across the world. Piracy is not a crime in my home country (I'm serious, it's really not), so does that mean I can download for free? Laws hardly matter when it comes to this. So let's keep it simple. X takes something from Y without his consent. That is stealing by definition. That something had no value, is it still stealing? This is assuming that other people have already bought a few of Y's albums, and the money he spent recording has come back to him.

Laws don't matter to you because you want to justify your stealing. If it is not illegal in your home country(I thought you lived in Canada?) fine. But you are still stealing from bands. I will assume the bands you are stealing from are not from your home country. So you are stealing from them where it is illegal to steal in their home country. So as much as you would like to take the law out of it so it helps your case. It is allways there and therefore is part of the conversation.

Quote :

So let's keep it simple. X takes something from Y without his consent. That is stealing by definition. That something had no value, i[/color][color=green]s it still stealing? This is assuming that other people have already bought a few of Y's albums, and the money he spent recording has come back to him.

Music recorded to a CD that is sold in a store and paid for by a record company has NO value? What if none buy Y's album and everyone is like you and steals it? Record sales are at all time lows. Know why? Because people like you and the views you share. "Why waste my money on the music I love when I can get it for free?" That attitude is what is killing the music industry. I don't mean record executives. I mean the corner record stores that are dying off by the truck load. Four have gone under in a 20 miles radius where I live alone. So if you feel no remorse for stealing from the bands. How about feeling bad about the fact that you are part of a though process that is putting people out of work.

AarO)))n wrote:

Ahmedeus wrote:

No, Aaron, you are refusing to see it any other way.

"How exactly are the record companies and artist not being stolen from exactly?"

Because their bank accounts remain the same.

Stealing is only stealing if it matters. I'm not guilty of anything. I don't need to clear my conscience. I'm just someone who doesn't believe money should matter when it comes to music. Whether it's my own or someone else's.

Because Ahmed. There is no other way of seeing it. IT IS STEALING! This is not a matter of opinion this is fact and LAW. There bank accounts are out $10-$12 every time you steal one of their records. That is money that help the bands you say you love. Thomas has pointed that out to you and other numerous time. These bands we love are not looking to be rich. They are looking to make a living making music and creating things that other may enjoy. I don't feel I have wasted any money on the thousands of albums I have bought over the years. Even the ones I traded in or gave away. They served a a message about those bands and it is all part of the experience of buy music. Buying albums makes me feel I am a part of the club if you will. When they tour or release their next album I feel like I helped. When I meet these people this is why they are so thankful and humble to their fans. They know that you are helping to truly support them and their art. I for one am happy to do that no matter the cost. I spent $15 to see Shrinebulider. I got to meet and talk with Wino, Scott Kelly, Al Cisneros and others from other bands I like that were there for the show. FOR $15! I would have paid that much just to meet Wino and paid $1000 to see the show. It is not about the money. It is about the experience and the music. Paying for the music is just part of the deal, and I am happy to do so. Your money for their product is your way of showing love and support for their art. You say you love this music. Well try giving it something that shows that. Because stealing it so you can play video games and do the things you would rather spend it on, make it so the bands you love can not do those things.

The fact is stealing it is cheaper than buying it. It works out for you so what do you care. Whether you admit it or not is not the point. Whether you accept it or not is not the point. You are stealing. Says the law. All your excuses and rationalization will get you no where if you are caught.

I wonder if you would feel the same if I stole some of you pictures you have taken and sold them as my own? Doubt it. True you may not be profiting from the music. But like me, you are stealing it.

If you claimed my photos to be yours, it would be plagiarizing. It's like stealing a riff, not an album. Close though

You say "If you don't pay for it, you steal it". It might seem contradictory but I agree with that. I would be stupid not to. But this issue is complicated and the story doesn't end there.

Is it stealing it if you make a mixtape for your girlfriend/wife/friend? It's file sharing isn't it? And they didn't pay for it.

Is it stealing if you hear on the radio for free? Or tape it when it's playing on the radio?

So you see it's not as simple as black and white.

"There bank accounts are out $10-$12 every time you steal one of their records."

Okay. Makes sense. Even though it's theoretical money you're talking about, they do deserve it. I accept. What I meant was, I just downloaded a Slayer album, and guess what happened to them? Nothing! They're still millionaires! But I just downloaded a Sheavy album too. And they're still broke dedicated rockers. Nothing happened to them either. I do accept in their case, that I should probably be supporting them because I love them.

Dude the law sucks. Screw the law. I'll tell you guys one thing, you are right on many points, but you are also making a big deal out this. Bands know better. They expect this when they get into the business. And guess what? They don't friggin' care! Forbidden's manager/label messaged be once to take down their albums from my blog. I did. It was that simple. You just Google your band's name and message the blog owners to not distribute it. I didn't get threatened or sued. Your label says to Youtube "remove that video 'cause it's ours" and it gets removed. That's all it takes.

A guy searches "child porn" on Google and the government tracks him down in a second. But they can't catch a guy who downloads ~60GB a month? Sure pedophile is not the same as music fan (although I cannot speak for everyone over here lol), but if it's a crime, then someone should be getting caught. Clearly it's not that big of a deal with the law OR the bands. Otherwise, like I said, I'd be jail. Or there would be no music on Youtube or blogs.

ITT: Major denial or people who have come to terms with what they do.

But seriously, artists make a product and they need equipement, they're not making money while they are writing a record, they need time in a studio, which costs a fucking lot. They record label need money for producing the cds and the covers (little expense, but it's there).

So if a guy buys and upload it to mediafire and 50 persons download it, the makers are going to be missing 50 albums, a person who buy one album gets the right to play that album and that album alone.

Ahmedeus wrote:

You have 200 Cds, which means you've spent 2000 pounds or dollars if each album is for 10. What about John/Aaron and the others? They have literally thousands of albums. Just ask them. Add that up and you get a ridiculous amount of money (for me). You're saying I have to spent 10,000 bucks if I want to be a metalhead?

Sure, I feel like I owe the bands who produce the music I love, but I have other hobbies and responsibilities. Me being a fan should be enough.

Fuck no, if you want something and somebody owns it's rights you have to buy it or get the legal owners permission. If it costs to much to bad, then you've got to live without it.

Stealing is stealing not matter how you look at it.

"That something had no value"

This is the heart of where we disagree. For me, the music I listen to has worth, and if you feel it doesn't im not sure how you can call yourself a fan and keep a straight face.

Ahmedeus wrote:

Quote :

If you claimed my photos to be yours, it would be plagiarizing. It's like stealing a riff, not an album. Close though

Well as Thomas already explained to you. It is called Copyright Laws. If your art was copied and given away or sold with out your permission, it would be stealing.

Quote :

You say "If you don't pay for it, you steal it". It might seem contradictory but I agree with that. I would be stupid not to. But this issue is complicated and the story doesn't end there.

Is it stealing it if you make a mixtape for your girlfriend/wife/friend? It's file sharing isn't it? And they didn't pay for it.

Yes. I am giving them music for free with out them paying for it. So yes it is stealing. And it is something I do on a regular basis. In fact nothing pleases me more than making a copy of a few Cd's giving them to friend and having them discover a band they would never have found on their own. But the difference with them as opposed to you. They then buy the album. Because a digital copy is not enough for them. Owning it is what it is about.

Quote :

Is it stealing if you hear on the radio for free? Or tape it when it's playing on the radio?

No n the first. Yes on the second. You are stealing that song and not paying for it. You see radio does not play entire albums(normally) just for that very reason. they give you a taste and hope you buy the album. Radio stations are compensated buy selling ad time. So they make money off the music you can hear LEGALLY for free. If a band want to give their album away for free that is an entirely different story and not stealing.

Quote :

So you see it's not as simple as black and white.

Only to you and others that want to justify stealing music.

"There bank accounts are out $10-$12 every time you steal one of their records."

Quote :

Okay. Makes sense. Even though it's theoretical money you're talking about, they do deserve it. I accept. What I meant was, I just downloaded a Slayer album, and guess what happened to them? Nothing! They're still millionaires! But I just downloaded a Sheavy album too. And they're still broke dedicated rockers. Nothing happened to them either. I do accept in their case, that I should probably be supporting them because I love them.

WOW! you have real fucked up way of looking at this. I don't care if Slayer are billionaires. I am a fan and want to buy their record to say thanks for the record and the years of great music, and when they show up to record signings they return that with thank you's and hand shakes to all that attend. Because no matter the money. They know why they are where they are. As for sHEAVY. No doubt you should support them the same if not more. The bands finacial situation should be of no concern. So id better to steal from the rich as opposed to the poor? Both are stealing that fact can't be changed. No matter your logic.

Quote :

Dude the law sucks. Screw the law. I'll tell you guys one thing, you are right on many points, but you are also making a big deal out this. Bands know better. They expect this when they get into the business. And guess what? They don't friggin' care! Forbidden's manager/label messaged be once to take down their albums from my blog. I did. It was that simple. You just Google your band's name and message the blog owners to not distribute it. I didn't get threatened or sued. Your label says to Youtube "remove that video 'cause it's ours" and it gets removed. That's all it takes.

So they don't care but wanted you to remove it. Seems like some care to me. In fact the next time you go to a show, do me a favor. Tell the band all that you have said here and see what they say. Provided they don't punch you right in the jaw. Also, "they should expect it" ?!?!?! You can't be serious. Your telling me they should just deal with right. Stop whining about be stole from and just waste their managers time e-mailing blogger to take albums down. Also, If you were doing nothing wrong why did you feel compelled to take them down? After all it is not illegal in your home country. Just let them hire an attorney take you to court and tell the judge all that you have said here. But instead you took then down because you can't afford the hassle. But the manger of the band should has be hassled with people giving it away for free.

Quote :

A guy searches "child porn" on Google and the government tracks him down in a second. But they can't catch a guy who downloads ~60GB a month? Sure pedophile is not the same as music fan (although I cannot speak for everyone over here lol), but if it's a crime, then someone should be getting caught. Clearly it's not that big of a deal with the law OR the bands. Otherwise, like I said, I'd be jail. Or there would be no music on Youtube or blogs.

Gee I don't know. Perhaps governments are a little too busy with things that rank a little higher than music being stolen. It doesn't make it a non-crime because you haven't been caught. I speed all the time and have only had one ticket for it. Doesn't mean I am not breaking the law all the other times I did and do it. I already showed you that people are getting caught and prosecuted to the tune of millions of dollars. It is not that they don't care. But it is not a high priority to governments and most bands can't afford to hire someone looking for those stealing from them.

Look I'm done and it is not worth arguing over any more. You believe what ever you want. You don't think it is stealing fine. In the end it doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks or says. The law states it is illegal. So say what ever you feel. It doesn't change the law.

Last thing. What difference does make that John and I own so many CD's? It is not a competition. John owns over 1000 and I own over 500. I bet out of that we share about 100 of same CD's. Most of what John has I don't want and vice versa. Some day I may have 1000 CD's also. But i learned a long time ago when buying music. Quality over quantity. I am sure John thinks the same way. So even if you own a mere 15 CD's. If you love and cherish each one. It is the same as owning 1000. Loving what you own is all that matters not how much of it you own. So don't use our collections(collections by the way that we have spent a lifetime collecting starting at 13 for me) as some reason why not to buy because you could never afford to get that many. Just get what you can when you can. Support the band and labels. the collection and the volume of that collection will take care of itself. Music is the best thing I have EVER spent my money on. Second only to my family.

Rosalind wrote:

"That something had no value"

This is the heart of where we disagree. For me, the music I listen to has worth, and if you feel it doesn't im not sure how you can call yourself a fan and keep a straight face.

THIS!!!!!^^^^^^

As a musician, I can honestly say that any "fan" who isn't willing to pay for my music isn't a fan at all. If you can't pay, then fine, but to say you've got better things to pay for? Worst display of fandom ever.

You steal music, Ahmed, get over it.

Alright, sheesh. I went out and bought a CD. Goddamn.

You guys still didn't understand me though. Or maybe I'm not understanding you. When I said Mp3s have no value I didn't mean they're not worth anything. Of course money and effort has been put into "THE album". What I meant was, effort was put into painting the Mona Lisa, but when you print copies of it outta your printer, that's not worth anything. Makes sense? No? I don't care, because I bought a CD. It's a start, deal with it.

Aaron, no it's not a competition, I like that you guys have a large collection and have invested so much in it. I was just making a point.

What's all this business about me being not a fan enough? I know how much I love Heavy Metal. I'm sorry but you don't. As far as supporting goes, I do buy a lotta merch. Not that I need to prove anything to you judgmental bastards! >.<

The reason I have a "fucked up" view on this is because I don't think there should be a music "business" in the first place. Especially now with the internet and all. It should all be like a street musician. He entertains, you give whatever you think he deserves, as far as albums are concerned. Before you jump and attack me, I accept there are some problems with this view. But that's another story.

I got Slayer's World Painted Blood. Mainly 'cause I wanted to get it signed (hopefully) when they come here to Canada. But since I have a shitload of their stuff; tshirts, pins, autographed picks, a guitar, etc. might as well have a CD too. Gotta admit, liking the new CD smell!

Bidley wrote:

As a musician, I can honestly say that any "fan" who isn't willing to pay for my music isn't a fan at all. If you can't pay, then fine, but to say you've got better things to pay for? Worst display of fandom ever.

You steal music, Ahmed, get over it.

And as a recording musician myself, I'm happy to give my music away for free. Granted, you have an ounce of experience over me. You have spent a couple bucks on studio time and your EP. Still, you would measure people's love for your music by money? I don't think that's how things should go. I personally wouldn't mind if someone stole my album, found it in the trash or bought it like everyone else. Okay fine, unrealistic way of looking at things. Labels only keep you if your albums sell. This is why bands go independent, and play more live shows. There you go, you get your money. I'm not saying you shouldn't charge people for your albums. That's just me, I work in a different way. Making music is not a job for me. What I'm saying is, you shouldn't try to measure people's love for music by how much they're willing to spend. Whether it's me or your fans. Be happy they're willing to listen to your music. It's fucking hard getting people's attention these days. Are the bands doing a service to the listeners or vice versa?

A new medium has been introduced, and one can do nothing but to embrace it. The internet is a gift. Play just a little more concerts and this Mp3 thing can become a good thing instead of a problem (you will still have CDs like you still have vinyls). You guys convinced me into buying albums but sadly you can't convince everyone.

I will say one more thing about this, the music industry brought this on themselves to some extent. The markup on CD's was stupid, and they were trying to take people for as much as possible. They gouged people and people stopped buying. Now even the bands and the labels who didn't gouge are paying the price as well.

There are many, many articles on the gouging of the music industry, and it bit them in the ass later. Plus as far as supporting the artists and being a true fan it also well documented how little of CD sales go to the artists. Instead I'm paying the salaries of the people who know how to get it to the broadest number of people, and I'm not a big fan of them, or the wages for the kid at the music store. I'm a fan of the band. With the internet there are better and more cost effecient ways to promote your music (should be obvious now simply due to the fact that so many bands have myspace etc.).

As far as saying, okay that's the big labels, the small guys love the music etc they do it for better reasons blah blah. Bullshit, smaller labels operate differently out of necessity, and I don't believe that they would turn down the big sales if they were available to them. Fact is they have chosen to market a niche product with a niche market. Same for most metal bands.

If a hamburger cost $25 at McDonald's I wouldn't buy it, and I don't care if it cost them $23 to make it. Bands/Labels insisted for many years on the $15 - 20 range, which is more than I value the product, regardless of what it cost them. They should have found a cheaper way to do it. The fact is I can get it online for free until they figure out a way to get their costs down. Just because I like your music doesn't mean I value it at your costs.

I still buy CD's, despite all my problems with music business, but I feel it is fair for me to preview the CD before I buy it if in turn I have to accept all the bullshit involved with the "music business".

Ahmedeus wrote:

What I meant was, effort was put into painting the Mona Lisa, but when you print copies of it outta your printer, that's not worth anything

Bad example, as the original is distinct from the copies produced (and even if an artist makes a copy of it, that would be whats called 'forgery,' and is also a crime). Software or Films are a better comparison, and yeah, you make a copy of a piece of software or a film then that is theft. The value of that copy arises from the initial cost to produce it.

Ahmedeus wrote:

What's all this business about me being not a fan enough? I know how much I love Heavy Metal.

And turning around and saying "I'll steal your album but I refuse to pay for it" is a great way to show that support.

Ahmedeus wrote:

A new medium has been introduced, and one can do nothing but to embrace it. The internet is a gift. Play just a little more concerts and this Mp3 thing can become a good thing instead of a problem

And since artists now need to make more money from their tours, the cost of merch and concerts may see itself doubling to pay back the label for their CD. Or the art of actually recording music will begin to die altogether. Im not sure which you meant but I consider it a bad thing either way. Using the internet for publicity is great. Using it as the penultimate source of distribution, i'll pass.

Ahmedeus wrote:

Bidley wrote:

As a musician, I can honestly say that any "fan" who isn't willing to pay for my music isn't a fan at all. If you can't pay, then fine, but to say you've got better things to pay for? Worst display of fandom ever.

You steal music, Ahmed, get over it.

And as a recording musician myself, I'm happy to give my music away for free. Granted, you have an ounce of experience over me. You have spent a couple bucks on studio time and your EP. Still, you would measure people's love for your music by money? I don't think that's how things should go. I personally wouldn't mind if someone stole my album, found it in the trash or bought it like everyone else. Okay fine, unrealistic way of looking at things. Labels only keep you if your albums sell. This is why bands go independent, and play more live shows. There you go, you get your money. I'm not saying you shouldn't charge people for your albums. That's just me, I work in a different way. Making music is not a job for me. What I'm saying is, you shouldn't try to measure people's love for music by how much they're willing to spend. Whether it's me or your fans. Be happy they're willing to listen to your music. It's fucking hard getting people's attention these days. Are the bands doing a service to the listeners or vice versa?

A new medium has been introduced, and one can do nothing but to embrace it. The internet is a gift. Play just a little more concerts and this Mp3 thing can become a good thing instead of a problem (you will still have CDs like you still have vinyls). You guys convinced me into buying albums but sadly you can't convince everyone.

A couple of bucks? Very condescending. £1500, actually. Not including travel, accomodation and the cost of manufacturing copies of the EP. Factor in that it took 5 days and we had full time jobs too. We had 100 copies made, and sold them all at a fiver a pop. So that's £500, a massive loss I think you'll agree, so measuring people's appreciation for our music in money is a bit useless. I also gave this EP away, didn't you see the thread way back? If making music was a job for me I would've quit a long time ago, believe me.

What I was trying to get across was that saying you love x band while saying you've got better things to pay for is a slap in the face to every band you've appreciated. Measuring things in money isn't right, but maybe it would be better to call buying a CD more of a sacrifice.

Also, I, personally, am not trying to convince people to buy CD's, I just want to people to realise that what they're doing isn't entirely moral. I'm glad you're buying stuff, because let's face it, having the CD is a much nicer commodity than a few MB off your HDD.

I didn't know that you posted your EP, got a myspace? Or could I get the link, I would love to check out your album.

One point I do disagree about with you guys; is, Even if I had a constant salary, buying music wouldnt be a priority. Wait now before you jump me. When I have a job and a family with a constant salary, I'll want to improve the quality of my life and my famliy's, get a better home, furniture, clothing, car, etc.. meaning, I'd rather improve the quality of my life than to buy the music I -so much- love. That doesnt make me any lesser of a music fan, just have priorities. IF I get real rich, real fast, that's a different story however.

Mostafa wrote:

One point I do disagree about with you guys; is, Even if I had a constant salary, buying music wouldnt be a priority. Wait now before you jump me. When I have a job and a family with a constant salary, I'll want to improve the quality of my life and my famliy's, get a better home, furniture, clothing, car, etc.. meaning, I'd rather improve the quality of my life than to buy the music I -so much- love. That doesnt make me any lesser of a music fan, just have priorities. IF I get real rich, real fast, that's a different story however.

I'll go with that. I work full time, and buying CD's doesn't come before the rent

Silchias Ruin wrote:

I didn't know that you posted your EP, got a myspace? Or could I get the link, I would love to check out your album.

Ok, I'm de-privating the link for a day.

Dryad - Ride to Ruin
http://www.mediafire.com/?zzvzmlwjttt

We were Power/Trad, to save people wasting their time

Mostafa wrote:

One point I do disagree about with you guys; is, Even if I had a constant salary, buying music wouldnt be a priority. Wait now before you jump me. When I have a job and a family with a constant salary, I'll want to improve the quality of my life and my famliy's, get a better home, furniture, clothing, car, etc.. meaning, I'd rather improve the quality of my life than to buy the music I -so much- love. That doesnt make me any lesser of a music fan, just have priorities. IF I get real rich, real fast, that's a different story however.

There are more important things than buying CDs. I for example quite like to eat on occasion. This desire comes first. Prioritising is one thing, but flat out refusal? That's just insulting.

Bidley wrote:

Silchias Ruin wrote:

I didn't know that you posted your EP, got a myspace? Or could I get the link, I would love to check out your album.

Ok, I'm de-privating the link for a day.

Dryad - Ride to Ruin
http://www.mediafire.com/?zzvzmlwjttt

We were Power/Trad, to save people wasting their time

Ooh, nabbing this one

LOL, let me know what you think, O Chutney Ferret