Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Aaron: My point being I considered improbable that it would happen. Alien life is probable.

Ricard: Its just a paradoxical argument. The defence of "We cant comprehend it" only goes so far. As far as I see it, replacing one unfathomable theory (the big bang) with another, more difficult to comprehend theory (God) isn't really an answer, not to mention betrays Occams Razor.

Quote :

There are paradoxes for everything though. Im sure you know of the paradox of motion:

In order to travel from A to B I first need to hit the mid-point, C. Then the midpoint between C and B (lets call it D). Then the mid-point of that, ad nauseum, resulting in the fact we can never truly reach B. Its bollocks of course, but difficult to disprove theoretically.

Yeah yeah, that's some calculus thing, right? I remember that.

Occams Razor = "The simplest solution is the most likely." Its a principle I believe it, but isn't fact. I assumed people knew what it was, my mistake

No no, remember Mr. Wallace and his rantings about Occam's Razor? I know what it is.

Abominog wrote:

I think that you are just being argumentative here Aaron. Probabilities and likelihoods are just that, and therefore should be relied upon to eventually bear fruit unto reality and fact. I think to doubt the existence of life elsewhere in the universe is naive. Now to doubt that it has ever visited Earth, that's another matter altogether.

Well being accused of being argumentative would not be the first time nor would it be completely untrue. But naive I would argue. I think I am be as logical as possible. I can not see it or feel it. Therefore it does not exist and I don't believe it. It is possible and I am willing to listen to more, and could have my point of view changed. It MAY be possible. But I have little time for maybe.

AarO)))n wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

And so what if he does? He has his reasons. I can't comprehend God any more than an ant can comprehend a human.

Was waiting for that go to answer to come out. Because we humans are so unworthy of of him and his awesome powers right? Bullshit. That is what all christian use to get out of questions they have no answers for. Hence faith and not fact. Your god sets us all up for failure and we are to spent the rest of our lives begging at his feet to let us into heaven. FUCK THAT! I didn't eat the apple and I have done nothing wrong that I need to ask for somethings forgiveness that has never done anything for me and when asked to prove his existence, has him minions spout of will that crap you have said. It is no different than the other greatest hit that christian spout. "Who are we to question god?" I'll tell you who I am. I am the guy that may burn for eternity because he did blindly follow and every time he brought up a question was given some bullshit answer. "God works in mysterious way and who are we to question." EXCUSES! The fact that we are put into this situation by him and made to play his game gives me every right to question him and DEMAND answers.

Faith and not fact, that's the point.

Also, how is that NOT a legitimate answer? I can't comprehend God's mindset any more than I can comprehend yours.

I don't know why people get so caught up in believing that God is just some magical benevolent fairy-tale.

AarO)))n wrote:

Abominog wrote:

I think that you are just being argumentative here Aaron. Probabilities and likelihoods are just that, and therefore should be relied upon to eventually bear fruit unto reality and fact. I think to doubt the existence of life elsewhere in the universe is naive. Now to doubt that it has ever visited Earth, that's another matter altogether.

Well being accused of being argumentative would not be the first time nor would it be completely untrue. But naive I would argue. I think I am be as logical as possible. I can not see it or feel it. Therefore it does not exist and I don't believe it. It is possible and I am willing to listen to more, and could have my point of view changed. It MAY be possible. But I have little time for maybe.

I can't see or feel Africa, therefore it does not exist.

Bidley wrote:

AarO)))n wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

And so what if he does? He has his reasons. I can't comprehend God any more than an ant can comprehend a human.

Was waiting for that go to answer to come out. Because we humans are so unworthy of of him and his awesome powers right? Bullshit. That is what all christian use to get out of questions they have no answers for. Hence faith and not fact. Your god sets us all up for failure and we are to spent the rest of our lives begging at his feet to let us into heaven. FUCK THAT! I didn't eat the apple and I have done nothing wrong that I need to ask for somethings forgiveness that has never done anything for me and when asked to prove his existence, has him minions spout of will that crap you have said. It is no different than the other greatest hit that christian spout. "Who are we to question god?" I'll tell you who I am. I am the guy that may burn for eternity because he did blindly follow and every time he brought up a question was given some bullshit answer. "God works in mysterious way and who are we to question." EXCUSES! The fact that we are put into this situation by him and made to play his game gives me every right to question him and DEMAND answers.

When you start talking about "human spirit" and how it makes humans brilliant, it may be an idea to display some yourself. You've done nothing but stamp your feet and say "LALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING" to nearly everything every has said. Now, it's well documented of your atheism and contempt for all things religious, but was there any need to sound so gleeful in your condescending rant at Alex's ratification? Alex (or any religious/spiritual/whatever person) doesn't need to explain his beliefs to anyone, not least someone like you who won't give him the time of day, and neither do you, by the same virtue. Now let's all get along and have bum fun together

I have listen and read everything that has been written by everyone here, I respect all the opinions given. Even though when I stated mine it was called into question and so was my ability to have rational thought. Because I don not see there side does not mean I am not listening. It simply means I disagree. Many compelling arguments have been made and I have read them all. But none have been based on anything more than theory really. So until I see concrete evidence I will find it hard to be swayed. Though I will be happy to listen. The more I do that, who knows, maybe I too will think there may be life on other planets.

As for Alex. He is the one to inject his beliefs in this conversation. Therefore it gives me the right to debate them. Remember as you once said Carl. Anything you post in a thread is open for debate. I take no glee in what I said. I was simply stating my opinion(though I do find Alex's response to be amusing). Now if this opinion is different than the one you subscribe to then by all means debate it. I am more than willing to give Alex the time of day. I like Alex and while we may not see eye to eye on this topic, I in no way, shape, or form will think any less of him because of his beliefs. But he brought it up, so I debated it. Now if anything I said was offensive to you or Alex, then I would advise you to do as the lord would do. Turn the other cheek.

Nautilus wrote:

AarO)))n wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

And so what if he does? He has his reasons. I can't comprehend God any more than an ant can comprehend a human.

Was waiting for that go to answer to come out. Because we humans are so unworthy of of him and his awesome powers right? Bullshit. That is what all christian use to get out of questions they have no answers for. Hence faith and not fact. Your god sets us all up for failure and we are to spent the rest of our lives begging at his feet to let us into heaven. FUCK THAT! I didn't eat the apple and I have done nothing wrong that I need to ask for somethings forgiveness that has never done anything for me and when asked to prove his existence, has him minions spout of will that crap you have said. It is no different than the other greatest hit that christian spout. "Who are we to question god?" I'll tell you who I am. I am the guy that may burn for eternity because he did blindly follow and every time he brought up a question was given some bullshit answer. "God works in mysterious way and who are we to question." EXCUSES! The fact that we are put into this situation by him and made to play his game gives me every right to question him and DEMAND answers.

Faith and not fact, that's the point.

Also, how is that NOT a legitimate answer? I can't comprehend God's mindset any more than I can comprehend yours.

I don't know why people get so caught up in believing that God is just some magical benevolent fairy-tale.

Comprehending a persons mindset can be done. You can't do it with god because he may not actually exist perhaps. What I meant is that it is a catch all excuse that many christians use to explain things they can't. If you are going to revolve your life around a certain code of ethics and standard put forth by someone or something. It seems to me you may want to know where that person or thing is coming from. If you can't understand him nor allowed to question, it seems flawed to me.

To be honest with you Alex. If I could take a pill today that would make me believe like you do I would do it with out question. If for nothing else to not be afraid of dying. To believe with out question is something I am unable to do. I have way to many questions about it all and have never found any answers given. Except for the normal stand-by's that you have used. If god loves me so much why must i grovel and beg for his love? He started it not me. I did not ask for this he made it so. So why are we the bad guys?

As for god being a "magical benevolent fairy-tale". Perhaps stories of talking snakes and men living in whales does that. Just a thought.

AarO)))n wrote:

And I say again. If this "logic' was applied to a "god", how quickly would that theory be struck down? To say that because there is no proof and to think we are alone is silly, does not prove a thing. What you have is the same as anyone who follows a religion, FAITH. You choose to believe that there "must" be life out there. Why? Because it is so big and vast? Not good enough for me. I take very little on faith. I want proof. If there is life out there why has it not tried to contact us? Yet we constantly try and find them. Sorry, say what you like. But until you produce proof, I have no reason to believe based on the size of the universe. By proof I mean REAL proof. Not, "We can't explain it so it must be aliens." proof. I want concrete evidence before I waste any time believing.

I disagree. It's not the same logic as believing in a God or gods. The complete opposite, actually. Especially considering the research that has been done on Mars and our Moon.

There is absolutely no logic that a great, invisible force or omnipetant being exists. The existence of God is simply a faith-driven belief.

Considering life on other planets within our own galaxy, let alone other galaxies within the universe, can be logically looked at from a scientific point of view with scientific discoveries. Water on other planets within our galaxy, easily hospitable environments for organisms. Life could have, or does, exist within our galaxy on other planets.

Now, I'm not saying that the life which exists are walking, talking, self-aware beings. It could be something as small as a single-celled organism or extremophiles, which are being found in more and more extreme and "unlivable" areas upon our own planet.

The idea of life on other planets is EXTREMELY more logical than the idea of a giant, floating god dictating the course of history and the world.

LegionOvDoom wrote:

AarO)))n wrote:

And I say again. If this "logic' was applied to a "god", how quickly would that theory be struck down? To say that because there is no proof and to think we are alone is silly, does not prove a thing. What you have is the same as anyone who follows a religion, FAITH. You choose to believe that there "must" be life out there. Why? Because it is so big and vast? Not good enough for me. I take very little on faith. I want proof. If there is life out there why has it not tried to contact us? Yet we constantly try and find them. Sorry, say what you like. But until you produce proof, I have no reason to believe based on the size of the universe. By proof I mean REAL proof. Not, "We can't explain it so it must be aliens." proof. I want concrete evidence before I waste any time believing.

I disagree. It's not the same logic as believing in a God or gods. The complete opposite, actually. Especially considering the research that has been done on Mars and our Moon.

There is absolutely no logic that a great, invisible force or omnipetant being exists. The existence of God is simply a faith-driven belief.

Considering life on other planets within our own galaxy, let alone other galaxies within the universe, can be logically looked at from a scientific point of view with scientific discoveries. Water on other planets within our galaxy, easily hospitable environments for organisms. Life could have, or does, exist within our galaxy on other planets.

Now, I'm not saying that the life which exists are walking, talking, self-aware beings. It could be something as small as a single-celled organism or extremophiles, which are being found in more and more extreme and "unlivable" areas upon our own planet.

The idea of life on other planets is EXTREMELY more logical than the idea of a giant, floating god dictating the course of history and the world.

Alright, I will go with that. But I was just using as an example. Science takes faith also and it is not with out it's flaws. I will concede that it is possible. Though I believe it to be highly unlikely.

AarO)))n wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

AarO)))n wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

And so what if he does? He has his reasons. I can't comprehend God any more than an ant can comprehend a human.

Was waiting for that go to answer to come out. Because we humans are so unworthy of of him and his awesome powers right? Bullshit. That is what all christian use to get out of questions they have no answers for. Hence faith and not fact. Your god sets us all up for failure and we are to spent the rest of our lives begging at his feet to let us into heaven. FUCK THAT! I didn't eat the apple and I have done nothing wrong that I need to ask for somethings forgiveness that has never done anything for me and when asked to prove his existence, has him minions spout of will that crap you have said. It is no different than the other greatest hit that christian spout. "Who are we to question god?" I'll tell you who I am. I am the guy that may burn for eternity because he did blindly follow and every time he brought up a question was given some bullshit answer. "God works in mysterious way and who are we to question." EXCUSES! The fact that we are put into this situation by him and made to play his game gives me every right to question him and DEMAND answers.

Faith and not fact, that's the point.

Also, how is that NOT a legitimate answer? I can't comprehend God's mindset any more than I can comprehend yours.

I don't know why people get so caught up in believing that God is just some magical benevolent fairy-tale.

Comprehending a persons mindset can be done. You can't do it with god because he may not actually exist perhaps. What I meant is that it is a catch all excuse that many christians use to explain things they can't. If you are going to revolve your life around a certain code of ethics and standard put forth by someone or something. It seems to me you may want to know where that person or thing is coming from. If you can't understand him nor allowed to question, it seems flawed to me.

To be honest with you Alex. If I could take a pill today that would make me believe like you do I would do it with out question. If for nothing else to not be afraid of dying. To believe with out question is something I am unable to do. I have way to many questions about it all and have never found any answers given. Except for the normal stand-by's that you have used. If god loves me so much why must i grovel and beg for his love? He started it not me. I did not ask for this he made it so. So why are we the bad guys?

As for god being a "magical benevolent fairy-tale". Perhaps stories of talking snakes and men living in whales does that. Just a thought.

Well hey trust me, I'm no blind believer myself. I've thought a LOT about it, and I've definitely questioned, but this just... I mean I can't really explain it. It feels right, it feels true to me, and that's the best thing I have to go off of. When I said "magical benevolent fairy-tale", I meant that people tend to believe that everything is all nice and happy and perfect and Teletubbies. But it's not, and God isn't. Or at least, that's what I can tell - like I said, I can't comprehend or define him.

And as for being afraid of dying? “And I am not frightened of dying. Any time will do; I don’t mind. Why should I be frightened of dying? There’s no reason for it—you’ve gotta go sometime” - Pink Floyd.

I almost had a heart attack there, thanks Ricard

Nautilus wrote:

Well hey trust me, I'm no blind believer myself. I've thought a LOT about it, and I've definitely questioned, but this just... I mean I can't really explain it. It feels right, it feels true to me, and that's the best thing I have to go off of. When I said "magical benevolent fairy-tale", I meant that people tend to believe that everything is all nice and happy and perfect and Teletubbies. But it's not, and God isn't. Or at least, that's what I can tell - like I said, I can't comprehend or define him.

And as for being afraid of dying? “And I am not frightened of dying. Any time will do; I don’t mind. Why should I be frightened of dying? There’s no reason for it—you’ve gotta go sometime” - Pink Floyd.

But not being able to explain it and have questions about it, to me, is the definition of blind following. You question it, but still go along with? This I do not comprehend. Before I live my life a certain way and follow certain rules I wish to know as everything. I don't think that is a lot to ask. After all, it is my eternal soul on the line.

As for the the Pink Floyd guy. I am 1000% sure he was religious and believed he was going to heaven.

Blind following would be just accepting what others tell you believe. Which I don't do, and which thankfully a lot of people are moving away from. I remember growing up hearing about those damn "cafeteria Catholics" who didn't believe EVERYTHING the church said and were only half-assing it and they weren't true Catholics and blah blah blah.

I mean personally, I've weighed the options, I've thought about it, and I've decided on what feels right. I don't need any church or preacher to tell me what to believe.

As for the members of PF, maybe. I know for example, Roger Waters is an atheist but I don't know who originally wrote that quote.

Nautilus wrote:

Blind following would be just accepting what others tell you believe. Which I don't do, and which thankfully a lot of people are moving away from. I remember growing up hearing about those damn "cafeteria Catholics" who didn't believe EVERYTHING the church said and were only half-assing it and they weren't true Catholics and blah blah blah.

I mean personally, I've weighed the options, I've thought about it, and I've decided on what feels right. I don't need any church or preacher to tell me what to believe.

As for the members of PF, maybe. I know for example, Roger Waters is an atheist but I don't know who originally wrote that quote.

Understand, you can have what ever belief you want. But I will have an opinion on them and may engage you in debate about them because of my beliefs. In the end as long as your beliefs are not hurting other then have at them.

No one wrote the quote. They were questions asked of various members of their road crew and employees of Abby Roads studio. Even paul Macartney (SP) and his wife were asked questions. But they were deemed to "acted" to be used.

AarO)))n wrote:

As for Alex. He is the one to inject his beliefs in this conversation.

You were the one to bring religion into it, if I remember rightly.

AarO)))n wrote:

Therefore it gives me the right to debate them. Remember as you once said Carl. Anything you post in a thread is open for debate.

You're quite right, I did say that, but what was getting at wasn't that you can't debate them, but to not be so condescending and, well, arrogant in how you conduct yourself regarding other people's beliefs. If you don't believe in something then I don't see how the feasibility of whatever it is just HAS to be shot down using nothing but your own ideals and the gigantic chip on your shoulder. If none of this is even slightly true, then by all means, tell me

AarO)))n wrote:

I take no glee in what I said. I was simply stating my opinion(though I do find Alex's response to be amusing)

Bit of a contradiction there, don't you think? Anyway, I saw the glee in the amount of lol's and the fact you were waiting for Alex to say what he said, and again in the latter quote.

AarO)))n wrote:

then I would advise you to do as the lord would do. Turn the other cheek.

Don't you dare try and presume what my beliefs are because I'm sticking up somebody with a faith of some description. I don't have to sit here and take shit from anyone, the same as you wouldn't from a bible-thumping, fire and brimstone preacher.

Anyway, no doubt you'll try and tell me how angry I am, but I can assure you, I'm really not hugely bothered

I saw a pretty interesting documentary the other day about life on Mars. It showed several reasons why there could be life on Mars but they couldn't confirm it.

Any thoughts?

I thought it was long decided that life couldn't exist on Mars? Or am I thinking of something else/gravely wrong?

To Carl. Because I am to dumb to figure out how to do all the quoting.



"You were the one to bring religion into it, if I remember rightly."

You do not. I brought up "god". Alex quoted from a the christian bible. Thus he brought up religion. I brought up the existence of a god.

"You're quite right, I did say that, but what was getting at wasn't that you can't debate them, but to not be so condescending and, well, arrogant in how you conduct yourself regarding other people's beliefs.

How was it arrogant? I am as sure of my beliefs as he is of his and i expressed them as he did. Perhaps with more "umph", but expressed none the less.

If you don't believe in something then I don't see how the feasibility of whatever it is just HAS to be shot down using nothing but your own ideals and the gigantic chip on your shoulder. If none of this is even slightly true, then by all means, tell me "

What else would you have me use Carl? Since we are debating faith how does the introduction on fact enter in? The only way to debate faith is with personal opinion and shoulder chips.

AarO)))n wrote:
I take no glee in what I said. I was simply stating my opinion(though I do find Alex's response to be amusing)


"Bit of a contradiction there, don't you think? Anyway, I saw the glee in the amount of lol's and the fact you were waiting for Alex to say what he said, and again in the latter quote."

Not at all. What I meant was that I took no pleasure in my response. I did however find Alex's remark amusing though, hence the LOL'S. Because it is the standard go to answer that all christian go to when presented with things they can not explain. As though it is some get out of jail free card. I was not "waiting' for Alex to say it. But I had little doubt that he would. Because, as I have stated already, it is a go to answer. Despite what you may be implying, I was not wishing and hoping he would say it so I could pull out some prepared speech. I simply responded to his reply.

"Don't you dare try and presume what my beliefs are because I'm sticking up somebody with a faith of some description. I don't have to sit here and take shit from anyone, the same as you wouldn't from a bible-thumping, fire and brimstone preacher."

Is this the part where you are not mad? You have every right to say what ever you like. As do I. If you feel you are being shit on then defend yourself as you have by debating like we are. Just debating. No hard feelings

"Anyway, no doubt you'll try and tell me how angry I am, but I can assure you, I'm really not hugely bothered"

Doth protest too much. Not hugely bothered. Yet took the time to take out the sentences you had a problem with and debate them instead of living life. I think it may have bothered you a little. If it didn't, then I didn't do my job

AarO)))n wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Blind following would be just accepting what others tell you believe. Which I don't do, and which thankfully a lot of people are moving away from. I remember growing up hearing about those damn "cafeteria Catholics" who didn't believe EVERYTHING the church said and were only half-assing it and they weren't true Catholics and blah blah blah.

I mean personally, I've weighed the options, I've thought about it, and I've decided on what feels right. I don't need any church or preacher to tell me what to believe.

As for the members of PF, maybe. I know for example, Roger Waters is an atheist but I don't know who originally wrote that quote.

Understand, you can have what ever belief you want. But I will have an opinion on them and may engage you in debate about them because of my beliefs. In the end as long as your beliefs are not hurting other then have at them.

No one wrote the quote. They were questions asked of various members of their road crew and employees of Abby Roads studio. Even paul Macartney (SP) and his wife were asked questions. But they were deemed to "acted" to be used.

And the same for you.

Interesting about the quote, I didn't know that.

Exactly what I expected from you Aaron, which isn't much

I'll let you imagine how furious I am. I assure you, I've just stabbed a load of kids walking past my house.~

You brought up God, but that doesn't pertain to religion in the slightest? Now that I find hilarious.

Besides, I'm definitely angry, and by addressing your post that means my entire evening/existance hinges on your next response in all it's presumptuous glory. I suppose you'll be telling me what I'm having for dinner next.

Anyway, I'm not even going to begin with the rest, I've banged my head against the Sullivan brick wall enough times already. Can somebody add a yawn smiley? Oh, wait, how about the angriest smiley in existance (is that the one I need, Aaron?)?

Bidley wrote:

Exactly what I expected from you Aaron, which isn't much

I'll let you imagine how furious I am. I assure you, I've just stabbed a load of kids walking past my house.~

You brought up God, but that doesn't pertain to religion in the slightest? Now that I find hilarious.

Besides, I'm definitely angry, and by addressing your post that means my entire evening/existance hinges on your next response in all it's presumptuous glory. I suppose you'll be telling me what I'm having for dinner next.

Anyway, I'm not even going to begin with the rest, I've banged my head against the Sullivan brick wall enough times already. Can somebody add a yawn smiley? Oh, wait, how about the angriest smiley in existance (is that the one I need, Aaron?)?

So am I to think that your lol's are being condescending? Why do you feel the need to keep telling me how mad you are not?

A god may pertain to a religion. But I was not bringing it up in the context of religion on purpose. I used god as an example of something that is not seen and yet believed by people. Like the existence of alien life forms on other planets. A god and religion can be exclusive.

I am sorry I don't see things your way Carl and am not willing to forego my belief so as not to offend you. By the way. Still waiting for those PM recs that disprove my reasons for not liking most of PM. Since I assume that is the brick wall you are referring to.

How about this for an angry smile.

AarO)))n wrote:

Bidley wrote:

Exactly what I expected from you Aaron, which isn't much

I'll let you imagine how furious I am. I assure you, I've just stabbed a load of kids walking past my house.~

You brought up God, but that doesn't pertain to religion in the slightest? Now that I find hilarious.

Besides, I'm definitely angry, and by addressing your post that means my entire evening/existance hinges on your next response in all it's presumptuous glory. I suppose you'll be telling me what I'm having for dinner next.

Anyway, I'm not even going to begin with the rest, I've banged my head against the Sullivan brick wall enough times already. Can somebody add a yawn smiley? Oh, wait, how about the angriest smiley in existance (is that the one I need, Aaron?)?

So am I to think that your lol's are being condescending? Why do you feel the need to keep telling me how mad you are not?

A god may pertain to a religion. But I was not bringing it up in the context of religion on purpose. I used god as an example of something that is not seen and yet believed by people. Like the existence of alien life forms on other planets. A god and religion can be exclusive.

I am sorry I don't see things your way Carl and am not willing to forego my belief so as not to offend you. By the way. Still waiting for those PM recs that disprove my reasons for not liking most of PM. Since I assume that is the brick wall you are referring to.

How about this for an angry smile.

I was being ironic with the lol's. I'm telling you how mad I'm not because I know you'll continue to tell me I'm mad.

This has nothing to do with my beliefs or your beliefs. I'm an agnostic, I don't have any beliefs of my own. I just have an issue with fanatics (to whatever degree, fanatic is a strong word), religious or atheist. If you didn't mean to be condescending or arrogant, then fine, but that is most definitely how you came off, to me anyway. I'm not saying everyone should believe what I do (or don't, as the case may be), not in a million years. I'm just saying don't be a dick about it, to be succinct.

EDIT: And the PM recs? I don't think I'll bother, I don't think you'll like a lot of what I'll throw at you. I've gotten over that

Dear Lord(pardon the pun), the first tiff of the New Lifer. :face:

What's this though, an internet argument that can still end in laughter?

Alert the presses! Supernatural indeed.

Abominog wrote:

Dear Lord(pardon the pun), the first tiff of the New Lifer. :face:

Yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

Do we get a prize? :cyclops:

Nautilus wrote:

What's this though, an internet argument that can still end in laughter?

Alert the presses! Supernatural indeed.

I never fail to giggle at Aaron's ridiculous avatar. On my PC it spins FUCKING FAST.