Nautilus wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

That wasn't the point I was making. The point I was making is that he HAS made an influence on your life.

God himself however has never interacted with me, only his followers have.

But he has. Hasn't anyone ever done anything nice for you?

Sure. But that wasn't God either.

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

That wasn't the point I was making. The point I was making is that he HAS made an influence on your life.

God himself however has never interacted with me, only his followers have.

But he has. Hasn't anyone ever done anything nice for you?

Sure. But that wasn't God either.

It was God working through people.

Nautilus wrote:

Geoff - the purpose of a missionary isn't just to teach though. They help feed and shelter orphans and people in third-world countries. They don't do it of some sick desire to try to brainwash people or anything. They're trying to help. They're putting their own lives at risk and giving their all to help the unluckiest people in the world. And I'd imagine a really, really great way to help people is to gather them in and for the first time in their lives teach them to read and give them hot food and tell them that one day they'll be in heaven.

Missionaries are a large part of how European countries justified colonizing much of the world. In Africa especially, missionaries were horribly corrupt and worked in concert with the colonial government to exploit people. For example, colonial law required that children go to school but since the government had no schools they were sent to the missions. The problem was these people were required to pay for schooling in cash, but they had no existing cash economy. The only option then is to work for the colonial government for extremely low wages and be in a destitute cycle of poverty. The missionaries were an integral part of the oppression and exploitation of millions.

son_ov_hades wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Geoff - the purpose of a missionary isn't just to teach though. They help feed and shelter orphans and people in third-world countries. They don't do it of some sick desire to try to brainwash people or anything. They're trying to help. They're putting their own lives at risk and giving their all to help the unluckiest people in the world. And I'd imagine a really, really great way to help people is to gather them in and for the first time in their lives teach them to read and give them hot food and tell them that one day they'll be in heaven.

Missionaries are a large part of how European countries justified colonizing much of the world. In Africa especially, missionaries were horribly corrupt and worked in concert with the colonial government to exploit people. For example, colonial law required that children go to school but since the government had no schools they were sent to the missions. The problem was these people were required to pay for schooling in cash, but they had no existing cash economy. The only option then is to work for the colonial government for extremely low wages and be in a destitute cycle of poverty. The missionaries were an integral part of the oppression and exploitation of millions.

Okay, fair enough. I'm speaking more of modern missionaries where people, usually college students, pay their own money to do it, though.

One question why didn't god send someone to give the ten commandments to the Native Americans or people it South America at the same time as he did the people in Europe / Middle East?

Maybe because this "omniscient" god was actually a bunch of ignorant people who had no idea that other people existed in the world. So he only sent his/her message to the people he was aware of. Suspicious behaviour for a deity who is all knowing and all good.

Nautilus wrote:

son_ov_hades wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Geoff - the purpose of a missionary isn't just to teach though. They help feed and shelter orphans and people in third-world countries. They don't do it of some sick desire to try to brainwash people or anything. They're trying to help. They're putting their own lives at risk and giving their all to help the unluckiest people in the world. And I'd imagine a really, really great way to help people is to gather them in and for the first time in their lives teach them to read and give them hot food and tell them that one day they'll be in heaven.

Missionaries are a large part of how European countries justified colonizing much of the world. In Africa especially, missionaries were horribly corrupt and worked in concert with the colonial government to exploit people. For example, colonial law required that children go to school but since the government had no schools they were sent to the missions. The problem was these people were required to pay for schooling in cash, but they had no existing cash economy. The only option then is to work for the colonial government for extremely low wages and be in a destitute cycle of poverty. The missionaries were an integral part of the oppression and exploitation of millions.

Okay, fair enough. I'm speaking more of modern missionaries where people, usually college students, pay their own money to do it, though.

Ah, well I'm still not entirely convinced of the righteousness of missionaries but as far as I know they don't overtly oppress people anymore.

I know plenty of people who went to do charity work during their gap year and aren't religious at all. In fact, I know a guy who was in my tutor group who just finished school and has gone to Africa to do charity work for six months without pay. He is more than just 'not religious', he's openly anti-religion. Thing is, he's a really nice guy who wants to help people out. God isn't working through him, he has no fear of a god and feels no duty, he just wants to help out.

Nautilus wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

That wasn't the point I was making. The point I was making is that he HAS made an influence on your life.

God himself however has never interacted with me, only his followers have.

But he has. Hasn't anyone ever done anything nice for you?

Sure. But that wasn't God either.

It was God working through people.

Ah, then if that was the case then he would indeed have affected me. And if I ever met him I'd kill him for robbing our house, giving my aunt a stroke, giving another aunt colon cancer, giving genetic disorders to four good people I have known, killing two close friends in the past ten years, forcing me to watch a friend suffer at the hands of an alcoholic and estranging two sides of my family.

Good thing I don't believe in God, or id be one pessimistic bastard.

Silchias Ruin wrote:

One question why didn't god send someone to give the ten commandments to the Native Americans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism#Brief_history

Bright_Eyed wrote:

Silchias Ruin wrote:

One question why didn't god send someone to give the ten commandments to the Native Americans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism#Brief_history

Was thinking the same thing when I read that. No wonder Branson is so popular.

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

That wasn't the point I was making. The point I was making is that he HAS made an influence on your life.

God himself however has never interacted with me, only his followers have.

But he has. Hasn't anyone ever done anything nice for you?

Sure. But that wasn't God either.

It was God working through people.

Ah, then if that was the case then he would indeed have affected me. And if I ever met him I'd kill him for robbing our house, giving my aunt a stroke, giving another aunt colon cancer, giving genetic disorders to four good people I have known, killing two close friends in the past ten years, forcing me to watch a friend suffer at the hands of an alcoholic and estranging two sides of my family.

Good thing I don't believe in God, or id be one pessimistic bastard.

You're alive, intelligent, and healthy.

Nautilus wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

That wasn't the point I was making. The point I was making is that he HAS made an influence on your life.

God himself however has never interacted with me, only his followers have.

But he has. Hasn't anyone ever done anything nice for you?

Sure. But that wasn't God either.

It was God working through people.

Ah, then if that was the case then he would indeed have affected me. And if I ever met him I'd kill him for robbing our house, giving my aunt a stroke, giving another aunt colon cancer, giving genetic disorders to four good people I have known, killing two close friends in the past ten years, forcing me to watch a friend suffer at the hands of an alcoholic and estranging two sides of my family.

Good thing I don't believe in God, or id be one pessimistic bastard.

You're alive, intelligent, and healthy.

No thanks to the evil bastard upstairs. Congratulations, you've convinced me to become religious.

Im gonna go burn a church. brb.

Hey man, shit happens. Nothing we can do about it. Life sucks.

Rosalind wrote:

Ah, then if that was the case then he would indeed have affected me. And if I ever met him I'd kill him for robbing our house, giving my aunt a stroke, giving another aunt colon cancer, giving genetic disorders to four good people I have known, killing two close friends in the past ten years, forcing me to watch a friend suffer at the hands of an alcoholic and estranging two sides of my family.

Good thing I don't believe in God, or id be one pessimistic bastard.

Your house got robbed? That sucks!

Ziegenbartami wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Ah, then if that was the case then he would indeed have affected me. And if I ever met him I'd kill him for robbing our house, giving my aunt a stroke, giving another aunt colon cancer, giving genetic disorders to four good people I have known, killing two close friends in the past ten years, forcing me to watch a friend suffer at the hands of an alcoholic and estranging two sides of my family.

Good thing I don't believe in God, or id be one pessimistic bastard.

Your house got robbed? That sucks!

Long time ago.

Oh fuck, would've loved to witness this debate but 11 pages is tl;dr.

On topic, yes.

Bright_Eyed wrote:

Silchias Ruin wrote:

One question why didn't god send someone to give the ten commandments to the Native Americans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism#Brief_history

Sorry but as a university student I have had it drilled into my head that Wikipedia is not an acceptable source on anything. Find a peer reviewed scholarly archaelogical journal that says these golden plates were found and then I will believe it.

Or if I accept this, what about the aboriginals in Australia? Plus I give you points for finding a counter to my argument and was just being a prick in the last post.

Once again why are we only focusing on the Christian god? The religion of the Aborigines is much more interesting.

Kamikaze wrote:

Once again why are we only focusing on the Christian god? The religion of the Aborigines is much more interesting.

Okay, but the Aborigines (or the Abo's as my Grandma likes to call them) for the most part (and I don't claim to be an expert in this area, just a few religous studies classes under my belt) tend towards tribal religions, which aren't monotheistic. And the answer is I don't believe that any god(s) in any shape, or form exists. The only "proof" we have is the word of men, which I don't trust. I prefer science. Show me an experiment that can be done in an a laboratory in accordance with basic scientific principles and I will believe in God.

See I have less trouble believing in a God than I do believing in the people who are asking me to believe in God.

Elephant.

May I also provide a brief problem that bothers me with the whole God issue(yes jacked from wiki, but I have seen it in enough philosophy/religion classes to know it is a sufficient summation of the problem).

Logical problem of evil
One example among many of a formulation of the problem of evil is often attributed to Epicurus [9] and may be schematized as follows:

1.If a perfectly good god exists, then there is no evil in the world.
2.There is evil in the world.
3.Therefore, a perfectly good god does not exist.

Silchias Ruin wrote:

May I also provide a brief problem that bothers me with the whole God issue(yes jacked from wiki, but I have seen it in enough philosophy/religion classes to know it is a sufficient summation of the problem).

Logical problem of evil
One example among many of a formulation of the problem of evil is often attributed to Epicurus [9] and may be schematized as follows:

1.If a perfectly good god exists, then there is no evil in the world.
2.There is evil in the world.
3.Therefore, a perfectly good god does not exist.

That's rather a very weak point; god created evil so people can choose between it and good, hence heaven and hell; it's called reason for being or existing. Did you think would create all people good and kind ? what's the point then ? I'am sure you dont think your purpose in life is sit around all day, go to work, drink beer and listen to music do you?

Mostafa wrote:

That's rather a very weak point; god created evil so people can choose between it and good, hence heaven and hell; it's called reason for being or existing. Did you think would create all people good and kind ? what's the point then ? I'am sure you dont think your purpose in life is sit around all day, go to work, drink beer and listen to music do you?

If god is "perfectly good" why would he allow people to suffer. If you saw some who was hurt and just sat watched them suffer it would be hard to argue that you are "perfectly good". Yet God sits by and watches people suffer even though he is supposedly all knowing and all powerful.

Sure YOU could choose to be evil, but why does he allow YOU to make other people who have not decided to be evil suffer.

This question has been debated in Philosophical schools for centuries, maybe a three sentence response is not quiet enough to soundly refute the argument.

The problem of evil is pretty much a cop out. God created Man with free will, but if they're not given the ability to choose evil, then they're not really free. Not to mention that good and evil are essentially Western ideas. One cannot exist without the other and in many cases evil will eventually lead to good and vice versa. Also, if there is an immortal omniscient being it seems pretty arrogant of us to think we can even begin to understand how it works. What we may perceive as evil on a microcosmic scale could very well cause greater good in the macrocosm.