Rosalind wrote:

Sorry, im of the belief it is both nature AND nurture that creates the individual, that genetics plays a role and babies minds aren't some form of metaphorical putty to mould at will. link.

You would be surprised how easily a child's mind can be molded. We have talked before of this as it pertains to racism. It is something taught not born with. I heard a girl interviewed on time that said her father from a very young age told her that sweets were VERY bad for her and to never eat them. Where as vegetables and such were the only thing she should eat. Now when she got older she realized that this was not entirely true. But because of her childhood upbringing she still had a hard time eating sweets. As a parent I realized something very quick. These children could believe what ever I taught them period. If sheltered long enough they would never know the difference. A child's mind is much like a sponge and clay mixture. It absorbs like a sponge but can be formed and harden like clay. If this speaks nothing to what you are talking about disregard entirely.

Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Im trying to figure out what makes you believe gay men have a choice to whom they find attractive whereas we dont. All you've given me is 'its unnatural,' which whilst it explains briefly your predisposition against the practice, it doesn't explain why you believe they have a choice we do not.

The only possible explanation I can get right now is that you sort of don't believe they are gay, that they're only pretending as it were, which still comes off as baffling. Have you ever tried to kiss another guy? My god, no wonder women hate stubble. Bleuch. Im not sure how you could begin to think how a straight guy could convince himself otherwise.

Then I ask you this, why arent you and I gay ? why are only some people gay -regardless of the number. I mean, you havent exactly gotten to me by that hormon article, it was rather an assumption, so again I ask, how come -for instance, an imaginary statistic- 1 out of every 100 new borns are gay ?

...because people are born different. Why are people born black? Why are people born with blonde hair? Why are babies of different weight at birth? Etc, etc.

Perhaps a black guy could convince themselves that they are in fact white, but that would mean they were most likely mentally unstable.

Only, colour, hair, and such of human feautres arent as specific as sexual orientation.

So personality comes across entirely through upbringing? And everyone gets born with identical minds?
Sorry, im of the belief it is both nature AND nurture that creates the individual, that genetics plays a role and babies minds aren't some form of metaphorical putty to mould at will. link.

You really have no belief in science at all do you...

Most of it, yeah, a big part of who I'am today is due to my upbringing. Surely not everyone is born with identical minds, but with natural sexual orientation. And as Aaron said, they are infact pretty much are, how else would you explain kids who play violent game often resolve to violence when mature ? or why a kid who's suffered a fucked up childhooh would grow up to be a criminal or not useful to the society ? pretty much parenting is the key in all this.

You'd be surprised Thomas, how I believe in science, but I believe in god first. In my religion, god ordered us to cope with current age in a way that wouldnt yet decay or moral values, also science is mentioned alot in the Qu'ran. Did you know that the process of the child forming in a womb i fully mentioned in the Qu'ran ? from semene to fully grow baby, I believe in science alright, but dont believe it can transcend the will or power of god.

Except most of the variability in personality has been linked to genetics. As for criminals, twin and adoption studies have shown that psychopathy seems to be at least as much genetic as it is upbringing. You may believe that a person's personality is entirely based on their environment, but psychological research has shown that it is nature and nurture.

Kamikaze wrote:

Except most of the variability in personality has been linked to genetics. As for criminals, twin and adoption studies have shown that psychopathy seems to be at least as much genetic as it is upbringing. You may believe that a person's personality is entirely based on their environment, but psychological research has shown that it is nature and nurture.

Yeah, you may be right by saying "most of the variability in personality has been linked to genetics" but I'am talking about the basics, as in knowing what's right and what's wrong, what to do and what not to do, is a result of upbringing. I mean, a child isnt born with the ability of knowing that murder is wrong, it's a result of parental and religious guidance.

"how else would you explain kids who play violent game often resolve to violence when mature"

I don't believe it automatically would. I used to go out drink entire bottles of vodka, smoke a 20 pack at the weekend and was stoned for 90% of my classes by the age of 14. I was sexually active, a drugs mule for the local dealer (who would regularly have his bag searched during school) and spent a lot of my free time seeing if I could find a new way to hack into the computer system. Assuming I wasn't stoned ofc. And yeah, without going into too many details I was fairly violent.

And oddly, I do none of that now. I rarely drink, haven't smoked weed for years, and sadly probably could do with getting laid more often. Im also very difficult to anger, and alright I still smoke. But everything else?

Genetics plays just as an important role as their upbringing, and oddly their upbringing is usually not as parentally influenced as you might think. It is their early experiences in the world that go a long way into moulding them; aspects beyond their control.

And yeah, babies are born knowing murder is wrong. Smoking is bad for me but I still smoke. That's me doing something wrong, so the 'why do people do it then' argument fails. How can I be sure they are born knowing murder is wrong? Look to the animals. They don't murder their own kind, and yet the fact some animals are homosexual make you wonder if they don't know the difference between right and wrong in homosexual behaviour because there simply is no right and wrong.

But I got curious as to what else the Qu'ran specifies you should and shouldn't do.

"Oh believers, do not treat your fathers and mothers as your friends, if they prefer unbelief to belief, whosoever of you takes them for friends, they are evil-doers. (Repentance: 20)"

"Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you. (Repentance: 123)"

Nice tolerance there I don't believe. You gonna kill me? Murder is wrong and yet the Qu'ran advocates it. Weird huh?

Aaron: My response to you is somewhere in there too. Basically what Zupko said; its a combination of the two.

Mostafa wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Ahmedeus wrote:

Will, why so emotional? A guy is trying to tell you what he believes, and you lash out on him with insults. That is hardly the correct way to debate, and you had lost the argument even before you started.

When people say homosexuality is unnatural, they don't mean to say that we shouldn't use computers or wear polyester. That counter-argument is quite irrelevant. What we mean to say is that it interferes with the natural order of the universe. This sounds corny but let me explain. You can look as males and females each as only 50% completely human. There is, and should be, a need to connect with the opposite sex in order to achieve spiritual completeness, and higher awareness of Being. Where am I getting this from? Well, it's our biological nature. Heterosexual love is absolutely necessary for survival. Reproduction is the most important survival instinct humans have. If you do not have it, there's something wrong there and it should be changed.

Your standard argument against this will be "well, there are already enough straight people in the world, they can reproduce". Again, irrelevant. We're talking about a lack of will to survive, here. Everyone should have that will. Besides, if there are already too many people in the world, murder should be alright, suicide should be alright. Note that I'm not equating homosexuality with any of those things, let's stay on topic.

Because he's a little shithead, an ignorant fool with no clue about anything. It's not a debate anymore, Mostafa ended that a while ago when he showed how fucking stupid he actually is. I don't care what he believes in but if he spreads that shit anywhere near me i'll dick on him.

Until you grow up, stop acting like a spolied brat, I will respond to you no more. Wont have a decent debate turning into a fight with a kid.

There is no decent debate Mostafa. You have no knowledge. You don't have any understanding of science or in fact general knowledge which is why your debating is awful. No this wasn't debating, this was me having a go at you for being an idiot. You didn't know that Muslim's hanged gay people in Iran to please god and yet you claimed with such confidence that such things never happened (another example with the caning thing). Yet you are so confident with your belief! You're sure that your belief is the only correct way just like you were sure that religion is a peaceful thing. Until you start giving some actual evidence and showing a hint of intelligence then this argument will fail.

And again haha, the kid thing, it's a classic. Being angry at someone is not because i'm younger than you are. Everyone experiences anger, it's a good way for you to feel better about yourself I know, everyone does it. Your grasp of life is poor, I find it hilarious that you can hope to call yourself correct when you have no knowledge other than what your holy book says. Men wrote that Mostafa, it's no more accurate (in fact much less accurate) than Dawkins' God Delusion book. Both were written by men, however the latter was written by a more intelligent man. Surely I can quote Dawkins and say whatever he says it correct without proof can I not?

Also yes, personality is very much linked to genetics. I'm nothing like you ( ) but i'm also nothing like my friends some of whom have had very similar backgrounds. I'm not similar to any of my friends or family. I spend most of my time at home with my family yet we share almost nothing in common. Actually, you should meet my brother, he's everything i'm not and vice versa. We grew up in the same household, same parents, both went to exact same schools and nursery and he's only the year above. Why then are we so different? It's essentially the same with gay people. I cannot change my personality, i'd be lying to myself if I were to do that (though I still find creating personas for different teachers amusing).

From my knowledge, and granted my knowledge of this subject is fairly slim (though actually existent unlike someone's), homosexuality is caused by genetics. 'slip up's if you will. Homosexuality is pretty easy to see from a young age (though the child will not have realised it yet). Tiny changes in the brain can account for this. You may have/or might in the future try the argument that other animals are not gay so it must be a choice. Well they don't get sexual pleasure out of sex unlike humans and so their only commitment is to reproduction unlike ours.

Monkzum wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Ahmedeus wrote:

Will, why so emotional? A guy is trying to tell you what he believes, and you lash out on him with insults. That is hardly the correct way to debate, and you had lost the argument even before you started.

When people say homosexuality is unnatural, they don't mean to say that we shouldn't use computers or wear polyester. That counter-argument is quite irrelevant. What we mean to say is that it interferes with the natural order of the universe. This sounds corny but let me explain. You can look as males and females each as only 50% completely human. There is, and should be, a need to connect with the opposite sex in order to achieve spiritual completeness, and higher awareness of Being. Where am I getting this from? Well, it's our biological nature. Heterosexual love is absolutely necessary for survival. Reproduction is the most important survival instinct humans have. If you do not have it, there's something wrong there and it should be changed.

Your standard argument against this will be "well, there are already enough straight people in the world, they can reproduce". Again, irrelevant. We're talking about a lack of will to survive, here. Everyone should have that will. Besides, if there are already too many people in the world, murder should be alright, suicide should be alright. Note that I'm not equating homosexuality with any of those things, let's stay on topic.

Because he's a little shithead, an ignorant fool with no clue about anything. It's not a debate anymore, Mostafa ended that a while ago when he showed how fucking stupid he actually is. I don't care what he believes in but if he spreads that shit anywhere near me i'll dick on him.

Until you grow up, stop acting like a spolied brat, I will respond to you no more. Wont have a decent debate turning into a fight with a kid.

There is no decent debate Mostafa. You have no knowledge. You don't have any understanding of science or in fact general knowledge which is why your debating is awful. No this wasn't debating, this was me having a go at you for being an idiot. You didn't know that Muslim's hanged gay people in Iran to please god and yet you claimed with such confidence that such things never happened (another example with the caning thing). Yet you are so confident with your belief! You're sure that your belief is the only correct way just like you were sure that religion is a peaceful thing. Until you start giving some actual evidence and showing a hint of intelligence then this argument will fail.

And again haha, the kid thing, it's a classic. Being angry at someone is not because i'm younger than you are. Everyone experiences anger, it's a good way for you to feel better about yourself I know, everyone does it. Your grasp of life is poor, I find it hilarious that you can hope to call yourself correct when you have no knowledge other than what your holy book says. Men wrote that Mostafa, it's no more accurate (in fact much less accurate) than Dawkins' God Delusion book. Both were written by men, however the latter was written by a more intelligent man. Surely I can quote Dawkins and say whatever he says it correct without proof can I not?

Also yes, personality is very much linked to genetics. I'm nothing like you ( ) but i'm also nothing like my friends some of whom have had very similar backgrounds. I'm not similar to any of my friends or family. I spend most of my time at home with my family yet we share almost nothing in common. Actually, you should meet my brother, he's everything i'm not and vice versa. We grew up in the same household, same parents, both went to exact same schools and nursery and he's only the year above. Why then are we so different? It's essentially the same with gay people. I cannot change my personality, i'd be lying to myself if I were to do that (though I still find creating personas for different teachers amusing).

From my knowledge, and granted my knowledge of this subject is fairly slim (though actually existent unlike someone's), homosexuality is caused by genetics. 'slip up's if you will. Homosexuality is pretty easy to see from a young age (though the child will not have realised it yet). Tiny changes in the brain can account for this. You may have/or might in the future try the argument that other animals are not gay so it must be a choice. Well they don't get sexual pleasure out of sex unlike humans and so their only commitment is to reproduction unlike ours.

He's calling you a kid because you're acting like one, not because you are one. It is not yet scientifically proven if homosexuality is nature or nurture, then how do you expect me to believe something your gay friends said? Wow, amazing. Your friends, how reliable. Think about what you're saying, and then complain about how we're ignoring your "facts" because your arguments are not "good enough" for us. Maybe they aren't good enough, have you thought about that?

There's absolutely no way of proving if holy books were written by men or God. I say it is written by God, you say it is written by man. What makes your statement better than mine? Have you read the Quran? Exactly. Then making a statement about how intelligent or accurate the Book is, is just plain stupid. If you have not read the Book, you are not in a position pass judgments on it.

"Homosexuality is pretty easy to see from a young age". True in some cases. But "young age" is not equivalent to "born with". See, kids learn the most between ages 0-3. In that time, parents of course have the most effect on them. Parents raise their children according to their own beliefs, even if they might not want to. You were talking earlier about how religious people are brainwashed to believe a certain thing. The correct term is "conditioned", and everyone is conditioned, trained and programmed since childhood to believe or act a certain way, and it's usually very hard to break them away from that. Anyway, I think that how parents raise their children in those years contributes to their sexual orientation.

I'm not taking sides, I simply share a belief with another person here.

Ahmedeus wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Ahmedeus wrote:

Will, why so emotional? A guy is trying to tell you what he believes, and you lash out on him with insults. That is hardly the correct way to debate, and you had lost the argument even before you started.

When people say homosexuality is unnatural, they don't mean to say that we shouldn't use computers or wear polyester. That counter-argument is quite irrelevant. What we mean to say is that it interferes with the natural order of the universe. This sounds corny but let me explain. You can look as males and females each as only 50% completely human. There is, and should be, a need to connect with the opposite sex in order to achieve spiritual completeness, and higher awareness of Being. Where am I getting this from? Well, it's our biological nature. Heterosexual love is absolutely necessary for survival. Reproduction is the most important survival instinct humans have. If you do not have it, there's something wrong there and it should be changed.

Your standard argument against this will be "well, there are already enough straight people in the world, they can reproduce". Again, irrelevant. We're talking about a lack of will to survive, here. Everyone should have that will. Besides, if there are already too many people in the world, murder should be alright, suicide should be alright. Note that I'm not equating homosexuality with any of those things, let's stay on topic.

Because he's a little shithead, an ignorant fool with no clue about anything. It's not a debate anymore, Mostafa ended that a while ago when he showed how fucking stupid he actually is. I don't care what he believes in but if he spreads that shit anywhere near me i'll dick on him.

Until you grow up, stop acting like a spolied brat, I will respond to you no more. Wont have a decent debate turning into a fight with a kid.

There is no decent debate Mostafa. You have no knowledge. You don't have any understanding of science or in fact general knowledge which is why your debating is awful. No this wasn't debating, this was me having a go at you for being an idiot. You didn't know that Muslim's hanged gay people in Iran to please god and yet you claimed with such confidence that such things never happened (another example with the caning thing). Yet you are so confident with your belief! You're sure that your belief is the only correct way just like you were sure that religion is a peaceful thing. Until you start giving some actual evidence and showing a hint of intelligence then this argument will fail.

And again haha, the kid thing, it's a classic. Being angry at someone is not because i'm younger than you are. Everyone experiences anger, it's a good way for you to feel better about yourself I know, everyone does it. Your grasp of life is poor, I find it hilarious that you can hope to call yourself correct when you have no knowledge other than what your holy book says. Men wrote that Mostafa, it's no more accurate (in fact much less accurate) than Dawkins' God Delusion book. Both were written by men, however the latter was written by a more intelligent man. Surely I can quote Dawkins and say whatever he says it correct without proof can I not?

Also yes, personality is very much linked to genetics. I'm nothing like you ( ) but i'm also nothing like my friends some of whom have had very similar backgrounds. I'm not similar to any of my friends or family. I spend most of my time at home with my family yet we share almost nothing in common. Actually, you should meet my brother, he's everything i'm not and vice versa. We grew up in the same household, same parents, both went to exact same schools and nursery and he's only the year above. Why then are we so different? It's essentially the same with gay people. I cannot change my personality, i'd be lying to myself if I were to do that (though I still find creating personas for different teachers amusing).

From my knowledge, and granted my knowledge of this subject is fairly slim (though actually existent unlike someone's), homosexuality is caused by genetics. 'slip up's if you will. Homosexuality is pretty easy to see from a young age (though the child will not have realised it yet). Tiny changes in the brain can account for this. You may have/or might in the future try the argument that other animals are not gay so it must be a choice. Well they don't get sexual pleasure out of sex unlike humans and so their only commitment is to reproduction unlike ours.

He's calling you a kid because you're acting like one, not because you are one. It is not yet scientifically proven if homosexuality is nature or nurture, then how do you expect me to believe something your gay friends said? Wow, amazing. Your friends, how reliable. Think about what you're saying, and then complain about how we're ignoring your "facts" because your arguments are not "good enough" for us. Maybe they aren't good enough, have you thought about that?

There's absolutely no way of proving if holy books were written by men or God. I say it is written by God, you say it is written by man. What makes your statement better than mine? Have you read the Quran? Exactly. Then making a statement about how intelligent or accurate the Book is, is just plain stupid. If you have not read the Book, you are not in a position pass judgments on it.

"Homosexuality is pretty easy to see from a young age". True in some cases. But "young age" is not equivalent to "born with". See, kids learn the most between ages 0-3. In that time, parents of course have the most effect on them. Parents raise their children according to their own beliefs, even if they might not want to. You were talking earlier about how religious people are brainwashed to believe a certain thing. The correct term is "conditioned", and everyone is conditioned, trained and programmed since childhood to believe or act a certain way, and it's usually very hard to break them away from that. Anyway, I think that how parents raise their children in those years contributes to their sexual orientation.

I'm not taking sides, I simply share a belief with another person here.

John Costigan gets angry an awful lot to to the extent of insults but no one would call him a kid, think about it.

You can't trust a gay man can you? Because he's a sinner? Haha, please, why would they be lying? While it's not proven that homosexuality is directly related to genetics the greater majority swings that way seeing as you know gay people aren't actually brought up other gay people. If that's the case then why are there gay people in Iran? A place where homosexuality is punished with death. My friends are reliable second hand evidence, I think it's a lot better evidence than a book that a guy wrote hundreds of years ago. Yes my evidence is easily ignored, why would they be lying Ahmed? Oh wait yes of course, sinners, I forgot.

Hypocritical much? Are you a homosexual? How can you say that it's a choice when you aren't gay and have no idea? I've seen what it has to offer, fuck I haven't even read the bible but I know what it says. It's filled with hypocrisy. If the book was truly written by god then why the masses of mistakes?

How would that affect their sexual orientation? Do you think a two year old learns about sex? I was brought up the easy way, I do something wrong and I get a smack but nothing else. There are plenty of people just like that who were brought up that way but are still gay.

Well then you're taking a side. If i'm at a football match and I think that Chelsea should win instead of West Brom then i'm on Chelsea's side. Trust me, you're not exactly taking a neutral stand point.

Also, you smoke. How is that not a sin? You're damaging your body something god wouldn't want, much like alcohol. Of course you'll find a way around that but the point remains.

Will: There are cases of homosexuality in animals. Not too common, but there's a fair amount of documented evidence for it.

Ahmed: I think (or hope) what Will is getting at is that its not an either/or situation. Its both. Can you change your eye colour at will? Proof of geneticism. Proof for the nurture argument is just as simple, how many in your city speak the same language as you? Proof that upbringing affects you. Who you are is a combination of them both.

Another example is skin colour - no I don't mean 'white and black' here. People from southern Italy are of darker colour than those from say, Germany. Both are Caucasian, but because of the warmer climate become more heavily tanned. So skin colour can be determined by both genetics and the environment.

My argument is that homosexuality too falls under both. Why do animals grow up homosexual? Probably genetic reasons - they'll have been brought up the same. Why is it that two heterosexual parents usually have heterosexual offspring? Genetic again.

Two possible causes for a homosexual offspring exist, a double recessive gene (look up mendel's experiments to learn about dominant and recessive genotypes) and the environment.

Right, that's the science bit out of the way. If it was entirely based on upbringing, then why is that so many of your country are Islamic? Why don't more reject the faith? Like language, religion is not based on genetics but upbringing. If homosexuality is also based on upbringing, why dont they bear more resemblance statistically?

Whilst you're correct in saying people learn more in their first few years (language proves that - I *wish* I could learn a language so quick now), what specific events trigger homosexuality? What exposure causes it? You can't say bad upbringing without being specific about what was bad about it. Homosexual parents are no more likely to have homosexual children than heterosexual parents (im referring to those who raise them, not the biological parents here). Neither exactly talk to their children about sex whilst their still an infant so what specifically triggers it?

Environmental effects is as less due to their parents than the associations they make outside of the home. That's why siblings are so different - neither will have the same interactions outside of the home. Homosexuality is - leaving genetics out of this - not a fault of the parents but rather of the society they exist in.

Ok, so that can explain the higher proportion in the western world - our greater tolerance for it. (Of course another conclusion could be that there are simply more closet homosexuals in your country, but i'm side-tracking). So, why is that there are any homosexuals in your country? Brought up in a society where they are taught adamantly that homosexuality is wrong, and then realising they are homosexual makes no sense. If its entirely upbringing, then how can there be homosexual muslims?

Answer: Genetics.

Monkzum wrote:

John Costigan gets angry an awful lot to to the extent of insults but no one would call him a kid, think about it.

Just because no one says it, doesn't mean they are not thinking it. Although, can you really blame him when it comes to Julian?

Rosalind wrote:

Will: There are cases of homosexuality in animals. Not too common, but there's a fair amount of documented evidence for it.

Can I see this documented evidence? (no pictures please )

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Will: There are cases of homosexuality in animals. Not too common, but there's a fair amount of documented evidence for it.

Can I see this documented evidence? (no pictures please )

AarO)))n wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

John Costigan gets angry an awful lot to to the extent of insults but no one would call him a kid, think about it.

Just because no one says it, doesn't mean they are not thinking it. Although, can you really blame him when it comes to Julian?

Then it does have something to do with my age, my point.

Julian and Mostafa aren't so far apart. Both have unchangable ridiculous beliefs and both show no evidence for it nor do they show any evidence against it.

Monkzum wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Will: There are cases of homosexuality in animals. Not too common, but there's a fair amount of documented evidence for it.

Can I see this documented evidence? (no pictures please )

AarO)))n wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

John Costigan gets angry an awful lot to to the extent of insults but no one would call him a kid, think about it.

Just because no one says it, doesn't mean they are not thinking it. Although, can you really blame him when it comes to Julian?

Then it does have something to do with my age, my point.

Julian and Mostafa aren't so far apart. Both have unchangable ridiculous beliefs and both show no evidence for it nor do they show any evidence against it.

And what about homosexuality in animals? Link 1, Link 2, Link 3, Link 4, Link 5. All bad parenting again? What about the evidence of differing brain activity in homosexuals? (Link).

Posted from earlier

Rosalind wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Will: There are cases of homosexuality in animals. Not too common, but there's a fair amount of documented evidence for it.

Can I see this documented evidence? (no pictures please )

AarO)))n wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

John Costigan gets angry an awful lot to to the extent of insults but no one would call him a kid, think about it.

Just because no one says it, doesn't mean they are not thinking it. Although, can you really blame him when it comes to Julian?

Then it does have something to do with my age, my point.

Julian and Mostafa aren't so far apart. Both have unchangable ridiculous beliefs and both show no evidence for it nor do they show any evidence against it.

And what about homosexuality in animals? Link 1, Link 2, Link 3, Link 4, Link 5. All bad parenting again? What about the evidence of differing brain activity in homosexuals? (Link).

Posted from earlier

Well that is interesting, I must have missed that. You can pretty much see that it's not lust or sexual attraction though between those two penguins. The main point was that the male had a better nest so essentially the other male is a golddigger .

I'll read it later when I don't have loads of work to do at 11:20...

Monkzum wrote:

Quote :

Then it does have something to do with my age, my point

.
If people don't say anything to John, I think it has more to do with stature with in the group and who he is arguing with(see Julian). As for age. No. You use age like some races use the color of their skin. Since it is something you can not change and is out of your control, you find a way to use it as an excuse when you are wrong. This has nothing to do with your age. Unless your age is to blame for your unkind words used toward Mostafa. Sometimes it is not what you say. But how you say it.

Quote :

Julian and Mostafa aren't so far apart. Both have unchangable ridiculous beliefs and both show no evidence for it nor do they show any evidence against it.

This is true to some extent. the difference is Mostafa has not gone out of his way to insult you(not that i have read anyhow). But when you did become irate and responded in the way other are talking about. He instead chose the high road and refused to respond to you until you could debate civilly. If you were to cut out the insults I am sure he would be more than happy to continue with you.

AarO)))n wrote:

Sometimes it is not what you say. But how you say it.

I've actually experimented with this in real life. I once was able word an insult in such a way that he apologised and walked off

Damn I wish I could remember how I did that...

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Will: There are cases of homosexuality in animals. Not too common, but there's a fair amount of documented evidence for it.

Can I see this documented evidence? (no pictures please )

At the museum of sex they have pictures of a gay necrophiliac duck, I've seen it.

Rosalind wrote:

AarO)))n wrote:

Sometimes it is not what you say. But how you say it.

I've actually experimented with this in real life. I once was able word an insult in such a way that he apologised and walked off

Damn I wish I could remember how I did that...

Kind of like how I smile at my kids and shake my head yes while saying no. As they have gotten older the affect has worn off. Instead of confused they have resentment. I am sure that won't come back to haunt me. *hides shotguns in new spot*

AarO)))n wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

AarO)))n wrote:

Sometimes it is not what you say. But how you say it.

I've actually experimented with this in real life. I once was able word an insult in such a way that he apologised and walked off

Damn I wish I could remember how I did that...

Kind of like how I smile at my kids and shake my head yes while saying no. As they have gotten older the affect has worn off. Instead of confused they have resentment. I am sure that won't come back to haunt me. *hides shotguns in new spot*

That would make sense if you were in Greece

(nodding your head means no, and shaking it means yes).

I never said anything about sin. Till now, I have made all my points about homosexuality without mention of God. You're assuming I believe that homosexuality is wrong BECAUSE my religion says so. Regardless of what my religion says, I will still believe that it is wrong unless proved otherwise.

I don't care if your friends are sinners or not. I don't care if they are honest or dishonest. Because even they might not fully know if they were conditioned to be that way or if they were born with it. They are unreliable because if someone says they are happy, you do not know their happiness. You only know about their happiness.

You know what the Bible says because other people told you what it says. Which, again means that you don't really know what it says.

I'm saying it's not a choice because that's very unlikely. I won't say impossible, because that hasn't been proven yet. But we do know that genes don't dictate behavior or sexual preference, they dictate your physical traits like height. There is no such thing as a "gay brain". That leaves us with either choice or mental conditioning.

It can happen if parents don't socialize their children well. A 2 year old may not know how to have sex, but as soon as they are born, they are either dressed in pink or blue, given either a doll or car. They are taught how they are supposed to behave as a male or female according to their society. Any slip ups by the parents during that time can cause gender confusion and homosexuality.

You are right, smoking is bad, and that is general knowledge. I started smoking when I was 13 to be cool and now I'm addicted. The point is, if you are doing something wrong, and you're aware of it, you try to change it. Regardless if it was forced upon you or you chose it. Besides, I never said anything about me being a perfect Muslim.

Rosalind wrote:

That would make sense if you were in Greece

(nodding your head means no, and shaking it means yes).

Well, I am not Greek. But I do fuck that way.

AarO)))n wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

That would make sense if you were in Greece

(nodding your head means no, and shaking it means yes).

Well, I am not Greek. But I do fuck that way.

What, you fuck your woman and then bang a dude? Greeks were pretty big on banging adolescent boys...

Rosalind wrote:

AarO)))n wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

That would make sense if you were in Greece

(nodding your head means no, and shaking it means yes).

Well, I am not Greek. But I do fuck that way.

What, you fuck your woman and then bang a dude? Greeks were pretty big on banging adolescent boys...

Greeks were also practicing anal sex with women. That was the angle I was going for. Please keep personal fantasies out of this.

[quote="Rosalind"]"how else would you explain kids who play violent game often resolve to violence when mature"

"I don't believe it automatically would. I used to go out drink entire bottles of vodka, smoke a 20 pack at the weekend and was stoned for 90% of my classes by the age of 14. I was sexually active, a drugs mule for the local dealer (who would regularly have his bag searched during school) and spent a lot of my free time seeing if I could find a new way to hack into the computer system. Assuming I wasn't stoned ofc. And yeah, without going into too many details I was fairly violent.

And oddly, I do none of that now. I rarely drink, haven't smoked weed for years, and sadly probably could do with getting laid more often. Im also very difficult to anger, and alright I still smoke. But everything else? "

Only, you did those things at the age of fourteen -sexualy active at the age of 14, you go Bawden - your not that easy to mold at that age, you're some what on the verge of being a fully comprehendable adult. But at a young age, you're alot easier to mold, I mean, if you were told daily that the things you did at 14 are wrong, do you think you still would've done'em?

"Genetics plays just as an important role as their upbringing, and oddly their upbringing is usually not as parentally influenced as you might think. It is their early experiences in the world that go a long way into moulding them; aspects beyond their control".

You've mentioned this in the later pages also to Ahmed, but I dont see enough or valid proof that homosexuality is a genetic problem, to make me change my mind.

"And yeah, babies are born knowing murder is wrong. Smoking is bad for me but I still smoke. That's me doing something wrong, so the 'why do people do it then' argument fails. How can I be sure they are born knowing murder is wrong? Look to the animals. They don't murder their own kind, and yet the fact some animals are homosexual make you wonder if they don't know the difference between right and wrong in homosexual behaviour because there simply is no right and wrong."

Come on now, if a baby grew up in a wild and savage place where murder is an average daily thing, how the hell would he know ?

"But I got curious as to what else the Qu'ran specifies you should and shouldn't do.

"Oh believers, do not treat your fathers and mothers as your friends, if they prefer unbelief to belief, whosoever of you takes them for friends, they are evil-doers. (Repentance: 20)"

"Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you. (Repentance: 123)"

Nice tolerance there I don't believe. You gonna kill me? Murder is wrong and yet the Qu'ran advocates it. Weird huh? "

One thing god doesnt tolerate, is non believers in him. God is merciful, but why would he show mercy or tolerance to those who dont believe in him in the first place !? And If you've read the Qu'ran. you'd know that only murdering an innocent soul is a sin and wrong, you'd reply "So, not believing in god makes me not innocent ?" not believing in god would hence make you do anything and everything against his teachings, hence, the non innocence.

I've never killed anyone and the Qu'ran has no influence on that decision. It also plainly states to murder non-believers, as well as murder being wrong. So how do you decide which parts are correct?

Animals grow up in wild savage places and yet rarely kill their own kind. Its this incredible thing called a conscience. Yeah, we all have one. Even animals seem to display some form of conscience.

I ask the same questions I asked Ahmed, you claim its due to upbringing.

1) Language is also part of upbringing. So why do young babies not grow up and learn to speak a foreign language as a native tongue. Say, how many fluent French speakers are born in your city?

2) Don't be so vague as to say 'its upbringing.' What about the upbringing causes someone to become a homosexual?

3) If its a fault of the parents, then why are twins not identical in personality as well as appearance?

4) If they are under threat of possible death (shown by the link given by Will), such a severe punishment demonstrating the attitudes towards homosexuals, why are there any in that country? How can it be a fault of upbringing if everything in their society is so heavily geared towards punishing it that nobody in their right mind would choose to go against their religion, country and suffer severe punishment/death as a consequence?