AarO)))n wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Quote :

It's not set up, it's fate. And if you want to call it pawn's, then that's who we are, god created us for the sole purpose of worshiping him, if you can find a better reason for existing, by all means do share. We pay for the mistakes because god wanted us to, not because they "made a mistake" and I asure you, you dont know for sure you wouldnt have made that choice.

So god has issues with love. He doesn't allow us to love him. He makes us love him or burn eternally in hell. That is the same as holding gun to a woman's head and saying, "You have a choice. Love me or die?" Not much of a choice is it? So much for free will. Life is not enough for you? Why does there HAVE to be a purpose? My life is without religion or a belief in a god. But it is FAR from empty. I do know for sure that I would not have done that. Why would I sacrifice that perfect utopia? Adam and Eve walked and talked with god in the garden. They did not need faith. He was actually there. They only had one rule, don't eat from the tree. It was not as though they were starving and had nothing else to do. I will give you an example.

I have a child that is 2. I put that child in a room full of every toy that any kid could ever want. In the middle of this room I place a loaded 45 pistol. I tell this 2 year old. "Everything in this room is yours to play with. But don't touch the gun." Then I leave the room. What do you think will happen? Now add to that. I allow a talking snake to whisper to that child that what i said was bullshit and playing with the gun is a good thing. When the child eventually blows his brain's out. Who fault is it? Mine or the child's? Did I really ever give the kid a choice in the first place?

Actually, god gives us the free choice of loving him, or not, hence comes faith, if you believe in god, you'll love him and if you dont then you surely wont. And god never tried to force us to love him, where did you get that idea ? So our purpose in life is what ? getting a good job and starting a good family ? anyone can do that if they worked hard, that's not a a higher purpose, it's just average life - not refering to you at all. No you dont, because you are not omnipotent are you. They did have faith whether they saw god or didnt. It's satan who seduced them to do the forbidden.

If your 2 year old son believed in you and trusted and respected you, then no way in hell would he touch that gun, also dont compare and 2 year old to mature people, he hasnt the capability to differentiate between right and wrong, they did. But they had a moment of weakness.

Rosalind wrote:

"basically my point is, you choose to make that ham, Costigan chooses to kill you, it's you who make these choices not god, he only knows what you'll do and when you'll do it."

How can I have free will when every decision I will ever make is already known?

Oh, I'll have to make a dumb example to try and clarify my point. You saw a friend killing someone today, went back in time a week ago and you know what he'll do in a week's time, does that mean you made him do it just because you know it'll happen ? now, try to apply that on god, no he didnt take a time machine or anything :/ but it's just the same, knowing what'll happen, doesnt mean you forced someone to do anything.

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

"basically my point is, you choose to make that ham, Costigan chooses to kill you, it's you who make these choices not god, he only knows what you'll do and when you'll do it."

How can I have free will when every decision I will ever make is already known?

Oh, I'll have to make a dumb example to try and clarify my point. You saw a friend killing someone today, went back in time a week ago and you know what he'll do in a week's time, does that mean you made him do it just because you know it'll happen ? now, try to apply that on god, no he didnt take a time machine or anything :/ but it's just the same, knowing what'll happen, doesnt mean you forced someone to do anything.

The future isn't linear. Your mere presence will have altered history and hence the altered the future in a way that cannot be known. If the future is constantly shifting and changing how can you know what will happen? The prospect of knowing the future means it cannot be changed, and thus - he may not have forced the action - but you are powerless to prevent it. You dont have the decision if the result is already known.

Mostafa wrote:

AarO)))n wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Quote :

It's not set up, it's fate. And if you want to call it pawn's, then that's who we are, god created us for the sole purpose of worshiping him, if you can find a better reason for existing, by all means do share. We pay for the mistakes because god wanted us to, not because they "made a mistake" and I asure you, you dont know for sure you wouldnt have made that choice.

So god has issues with love. He doesn't allow us to love him. He makes us love him or burn eternally in hell. That is the same as holding gun to a woman's head and saying, "You have a choice. Love me or die?" Not much of a choice is it? So much for free will. Life is not enough for you? Why does there HAVE to be a purpose? My life is without religion or a belief in a god. But it is FAR from empty. I do know for sure that I would not have done that. Why would I sacrifice that perfect utopia? Adam and Eve walked and talked with god in the garden. They did not need faith. He was actually there. They only had one rule, don't eat from the tree. It was not as though they were starving and had nothing else to do. I will give you an example.

I have a child that is 2. I put that child in a room full of every toy that any kid could ever want. In the middle of this room I place a loaded 45 pistol. I tell this 2 year old. "Everything in this room is yours to play with. But don't touch the gun." Then I leave the room. What do you think will happen? Now add to that. I allow a talking snake to whisper to that child that what i said was bullshit and playing with the gun is a good thing. When the child eventually blows his brain's out. Who fault is it? Mine or the child's? Did I really ever give the kid a choice in the first place?

Actually, god gives us the free choice of loving him, or not, hence comes faith, if you believe in god, you'll love him and if you dont then you surely wont. And god never tried to force us to love him, where did you get that idea ? So our purpose in life is what ? getting a good job and starting a good family ? anyone can do that if they worked hard, that's not a a higher purpose, it's just average life - not refering to you at all. No you dont, because you are not omnipotent are you. They did have faith whether they saw god or didnt. It's satan who seduced them to do the forbidden.

If your 2 year old son believed in you and trusted and respected you, then no way in hell would he touch that gun, also dont compare and 2 year old to mature people, he hasnt the capability to differentiate between right and wrong, they did. But they had a moment of weakness.

Actually, I'd say Adam and Eve were closer to the baby.

Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

"basically my point is, you choose to make that ham, Costigan chooses to kill you, it's you who make these choices not god, he only knows what you'll do and when you'll do it."

How can I have free will when every decision I will ever make is already known?

Oh, I'll have to make a dumb example to try and clarify my point. You saw a friend killing someone today, went back in time a week ago and you know what he'll do in a week's time, does that mean you made him do it just because you know it'll happen ? now, try to apply that on god, no he didnt take a time machine or anything :/ but it's just the same, knowing what'll happen, doesnt mean you forced someone to do anything.

The future isn't linear. Your mere presence will have altered history and hence the altered the future in a way that cannot be known. If the future is constantly shifting and changing how can you know what will happen? The prospect of knowing the future means it cannot be changed, and thus - he may not have forced the action - but you are powerless to prevent it. You dont have the decision if the result is already known.

You seriously shifted and deviated away from my point and went into a scientific one !

"You dont have the decision if the result is already known."
This is where we will disagree. I stand by my point that we make the decisions, and god only knows them, and doesnt force us to do any of them, at all.

Mostafa wrote:

Quote :

Actually, god gives us the free choice of loving him, or not, hence comes faith, if you believe in god, you'll love him and if you dont then you surely wont. And god never tried to force us to love him, where did you get that idea ?

And if you don't you burn in hell. That is not much of a choice. He forces us by saying "Love me or die?" Again, where is the choice?

Quote :

So our purpose in life is what ? getting a good job and starting a good family ? anyone can do that if they worked hard, that's not a a higher purpose, it's just average life - not refering to you at all.

Your right. IF THEY WORKED HARD AT IT. Many do not. So perhaps that is the purpose of life after all?

Quote :

No you dont, because you are not omnipotent are you. They did have faith whether they saw god or didnt. It's satan who seduced them to do the forbidden.

So because I am not omnipotent. I therefore can not look back and say I would not do something? How is that exactly? I know, given the circumstances, I would not make that decision. Not because I am omnipotent. Because i know it would be the wrong decision. Also, if satan made them do it, or they had no way of thwarting his seduction. Then where is the free will? Should it be satans fault, not Adam and Eve's?

Quote :

If your 2 year old son believed in you and trusted and respected you, then no way in hell would he touch that gun,

Right. because all 2 year olds do everything that is asked of them from their parents right?

Quote :

also dont compare and 2 year old to mature people, he hasnt the capability to differentiate between right and wrong, they did. But they had a moment of weakness.

But people have said numerous times in this discussion that we as humans can not fully comprehend god and his infinite wisdom. So we are like children compared to god. Hence my analogy(I hope that is what it is called). A moment of weakness that we all must pay for for the rest of eternity. Yeah, that seems fair, loving, and just. all the things that people say god is. Also a moment of weakness set up and allowed to happen by god willingness to allow the devil to temp them. For what? Shits and giggles?

"Actually, I'd say Adam and Eve were closer to the baby.[/quote]"

I wonder why lol.

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

"basically my point is, you choose to make that ham, Costigan chooses to kill you, it's you who make these choices not god, he only knows what you'll do and when you'll do it."

How can I have free will when every decision I will ever make is already known?

Oh, I'll have to make a dumb example to try and clarify my point. You saw a friend killing someone today, went back in time a week ago and you know what he'll do in a week's time, does that mean you made him do it just because you know it'll happen ? now, try to apply that on god, no he didnt take a time machine or anything :/ but it's just the same, knowing what'll happen, doesnt mean you forced someone to do anything.

The future isn't linear. Your mere presence will have altered history and hence the altered the future in a way that cannot be known. If the future is constantly shifting and changing how can you know what will happen? The prospect of knowing the future means it cannot be changed, and thus - he may not have forced the action - but you are powerless to prevent it. You dont have the decision if the result is already known.

You seriously shifted and deviated away from my point and went into a scientific one !

"You dont have the decision if the result is already known."
This is where we will disagree. I stand by my point that we make the decisions, and god only knows them, and doesnt force us to do any of them, at all.

Its simple. If I have the ability to make decisions then nobody can know what they are before they have been made. If someone already knows what decision I will make, then I don't have free will - I don't have the choice to make an alternative decision.

Either god knows what I will do and I have no free will, or I have free will and God doesn't know the future.

A scientific response? Not particularly. A logical one, definitely.

AarO)))n wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Quote :

Actually, god gives us the free choice of loving him, or not, hence comes faith, if you believe in god, you'll love him and if you dont then you surely wont. And god never tried to force us to love him, where did you get that idea ?

And if you don't you burn in hell. That is not much of a choice. He forces us by saying "Love me or die?" Again, where is the choice?

Quote :

So our purpose in life is what ? getting a good job and starting a good family ? anyone can do that if they worked hard, that's not a a higher purpose, it's just average life - not refering to you at all.

Your right. IF THEY WORKED HARD AT IT. Many do not. So perhaps that is the purpose of life after all?

Quote :

No you dont, because you are not omnipotent are you. They did have faith whether they saw god or didnt. It's satan who seduced them to do the forbidden.

So because I am not omnipotent. I therefore can not look back and say I would not do something? How is that exactly? I know, given the circumstances, I would not make that decision. Not because I am omnipotent. Because i know it would be the wrong decision. Also, if satan made them do it, or they had no way of thwarting his seduction. Then where is the free will? Should it be satans fault, not Adam and Eve's?

Quote :

If your 2 year old son believed in you and trusted and respected you, then no way in hell would he touch that gun,

Right. because all 2 year olds do everything that is asked of them from their parents right?

Quote :

also dont compare and 2 year old to mature people, he hasnt the capability to differentiate between right and wrong, they did. But they had a moment of weakness.

But people have said numerous times in this discussion that we as humans can not fully comprehend god and his infinite wisdom. So we are like children compared to god. Hence my analogy(I hope that is what it is called). A moment of weakness that we all must pay for for the rest of eternity. Yeah, that seems fair, loving, and just. all the things that people say god is. Also a moment of weakness set up and allowed to happen by god willingness to allow the devil to temp them. For what? Shits and giggles?

You dont go to hell because you dont love god >.< you go because of your wrong deeds, such as adultery, murder, theft and such. I choose to do right.

The purpose of life is working for the after life, you'd compare a life of 60 years of earthly joy to an eternity of heavinly one ?

It's kind of condesending to think you wouldnt make a mistake like anyone else, only god would know what you would've done, also, for example, you do know drinking is bad for your health, yet you drink; see my point ?
Ofcourse it's Adam and Eve's fault, Satan only has the power of seduction on man, they weakened and made a mistake by their own free will, and god forgave them later for that mistake.


It's true we can never comprehend god. But you compared a 2 year old kid to mature people, not to god. How are we paying for it ? if it werent for that moment of weakness we all wouldnt be here, as I've said, one thing must lead to another.

"Also a moment of weakness set up and allowed to happen by god willingness to allow the devil to temp them. For what? Shits and giggles"
So we can exist on this Earth, not for "shits and giggles" >.<

"Its simple. If I have the ability to make decisions then nobody can know what they are before they have been made. If someone already knows what decision I will make, then I don't have free will - I don't have the choice to make an alternative decision.

Either god knows what I will do and I have no free will, or I have free will and God doesn't know the future.

A scientific response? Not particularly. A logical one, definitely"

That's the point, Thomas. You're applying laws of reason and logic on god, he wouldnt be much of a god if they applied on him now would they... And a third answer is god knows what you will do and you do have a free will.

Ziegenbartami wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Ah, then if that was the case then he would indeed have affected me. And if I ever met him I'd kill him for robbing our house, giving my aunt a stroke, giving another aunt colon cancer, giving genetic disorders to four good people I have known, killing two close friends in the past ten years, forcing me to watch a friend suffer at the hands of an alcoholic and estranging two sides of my family.

Good thing I don't believe in God, or id be one pessimistic bastard.

Your house got robbed? That sucks!

I was mugged when I was twelve.

Did god really need my bike?

Mostafa wrote:

Quote :

You dont go to hell because you dont love god >.< you go because of your wrong deeds, such as adultery, murder, theft and such. I choose to do right.

According the christian god. Your acts have nothing to do with it. John 3:16 "For god so loved the world he gave his only begotten son. That whoever believes in him will not perish, but have eternal life." No where are your works put in there. In fact you know who is in heaven right now according to this belief. Ted Bundy. He murdered over 50 women. But at the 11th hour he chose jesus as his saviour. So he gets to go to heaven. That is fair right?

Quote :

The purpose of life is working for the after life, you'd compare a life of 60 years of earthly joy to an eternity of heavinly one ?

So you only do the right thing because you hope to be reward for it? I do the the right thing because it is the right thing. My reward is helping others. Of course your reward is dependent on the excistence of this heaven. Where as my reward is given to me every day.

Quote :

It's kind of condesending to think you wouldnt make a mistake like anyone else, only god would know what you would've done, also, for example, you do know drinking is bad for your health, yet you drink; see my point ?

So is it condescending to say that I would not have murdered 50 women like Ted Bundy. How so? It shows that I have morals. So do you not know what you are going to do in any situation until it arrives? You plan nothing? I can say that I would not have made that decision because I know how I am. If given that choice and living where they were living why put it all in jeopardy for a life of pain and torment? So are you saying you would have done the same thing? Why when you know what the consequences are for their actions? Do you not learn from their mistakes? I do and that is why I KNOW I would not have done it. I drink out of free will. I choose to do it. Not tempted by a talking snake(though I have seen some after drinking )

Quote :

Ofcourse it's Adam and Eve's fault, Satan only has the power of seduction on man, they weakened and made a mistake by their own free will, and god forgave them later for that mistake.

How did he forgive them? By making child birth come with pain and man being forced to work for his food? No. Instead he punished them for it and the rest of humanity for eternity. For what? A monment of weakness. Once again. Is that really fair?

Quote :

It's true we can never comprehend god. But you compared a 2 year old kid to mature people, not to god. How are we paying for it ? if it werent for that moment of weakness we all wouldnt be here, as I've said, one thing must lead to another.

Because in comparison we are like 2 year olds to gods infinite wisdom. You eluded to it yourself, "It's true we can never comprehend god.". How would we not be here? Adam and Eve were not going to populate the earth until they went against god? Also, you are proving my point about the set up by god. He allowed it to happen so he could play out his game. Also, proving no free will. If he is a god then he could make it happen any way he chooses. So why this way? (I now await the standard believers answer. who are we to question god or god works in mysterious ways)

Quote :

So we can exist on this Earth, not for "shits and giggles" >.<

So Adam and Eve didn't exist before? There was no other way to get them to fuck and populate the earth? Or was there no other way to make us all subservient to god and force us to love him?

Mostafa wrote:

That's the point, Thomas. You're applying laws of reason and logic on god,

And when you do that. You begin to realize why it is all bullshit. So believers don't so that they don't feel that their life spent worshiping and following, was all for not. You HAVE to believe it is real. Otherwise, why have you been doing it so long? Same goes for a guy who stops drinking. He HAS to believe that doing it made his life better(though in some cases it does). Otherwise, why stop drinking?

Monkzum wrote:

Did god really need my bike?

Maybe he really liked it.

AarO)))n wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Did god really need my bike?

Maybe he really liked it.

It was a nice bike



Also Mostafa: Maybe try getting your god to teach you how to quote people..

Mostafa wrote:

"Its simple. If I have the ability to make decisions then nobody can know what they are before they have been made. If someone already knows what decision I will make, then I don't have free will - I don't have the choice to make an alternative decision.

Either god knows what I will do and I have no free will, or I have free will and God doesn't know the future.

A scientific response? Not particularly. A logical one, definitely"

That's the point, Thomas. You're applying laws of reason and logic on god, he wouldnt be much of a god if they applied on him now would they... And a third answer is god knows what you will do and you do have a free will.

Finally a point I agree with. God is indeed an illogical and irrational concept.

AarO)))n wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Quote :

You dont go to hell because you dont love god >.< you go because of your wrong deeds, such as adultery, murder, theft and such. I choose to do right.

According the christian god. Your acts have nothing to do with it. John 3:16 "For god so loved the world he gave his only begotten son. That whoever believes in him will not perish, but have eternal life." No where are your works put in there. In fact you know who is in heaven right now according to this belief. Ted Bundy. He murdered over 50 women. But at the 11th hour he chose jesus as his saviour. So he gets to go to heaven. That is fair right?

Quote :

The purpose of life is working for the after life, you'd compare a life of 60 years of earthly joy to an eternity of heavinly one ?

So you only do the right thing because you hope to be reward for it? I do the the right thing because it is the right thing. My reward is helping others. Of course your reward is dependent on the excistence of this heaven. Where as my reward is given to me every day.

Quote :

It's kind of condesending to think you wouldnt make a mistake like anyone else, only god would know what you would've done, also, for example, you do know drinking is bad for your health, yet you drink; see my point ?

So is it condescending to say that I would not have murdered 50 women like Ted Bundy. How so? It shows that I have morals. So do you not know what you are going to do in any situation until it arrives? You plan nothing? I can say that I would not have made that decision because I know how I am. If given that choice and living where they were living why put it all in jeopardy for a life of pain and torment? So are you saying you would have done the same thing? Why when you know what the consequences are for their actions? Do you not learn from their mistakes? I do and that is why I KNOW I would not have done it. I drink out of free will. I choose to do it. Not tempted by a talking snake(though I have seen some after drinking )

Quote :

Ofcourse it's Adam and Eve's fault, Satan only has the power of seduction on man, they weakened and made a mistake by their own free will, and god forgave them later for that mistake.

How did he forgive them? By making child birth come with pain and man being forced to work for his food? No. Instead he punished them for it and the rest of humanity for eternity. For what? A monment of weakness. Once again. Is that really fair?

Quote :

It's true we can never comprehend god. But you compared a 2 year old kid to mature people, not to god. How are we paying for it ? if it werent for that moment of weakness we all wouldnt be here, as I've said, one thing must lead to another.

Because in comparison we are like 2 year olds to gods infinite wisdom. You eluded to it yourself, "It's true we can never comprehend god.". How would we not be here? Adam and Eve were not going to populate the earth until they went against god? Also, you are proving my point about the set up by god. He allowed it to happen so he could play out his game. Also, proving no free will. If he is a god then he could make it happen any way he chooses. So why this way? (I now await the standard believers answer. who are we to question god or god works in mysterious ways)

Quote :

So we can exist on this Earth, not for "shits and giggles" >.<

So Adam and Eve didn't exist before? There was no other way to get them to fuck and populate the earth? Or was there no other way to make us all subservient to god and force us to love him?

If he completely and fully repented from the bottom of his heart, yes, he was forgiven.

Nautilus wrote:

If he completely and fully repented from the bottom of his heart, yes, he was forgiven.

Well that seems fair. He gets to murder at will and then, when faced with death, he gets to be forgiven an spend eternity in heaven. How many other people would have done the same, if only they had the opportunity? How many people are burning in hell right now for just not doing it in time? Not to mention those who were never given the chance to hear the word of your god. Seem a bit unjust and not very loving to me? But I know. We can never comprehend gods plan. Who are we to question? Well when Ted Bundy is in heaven and some tribal indian from the amazon is not. Just because one knew and the other didn't. I think that gives us every right to question, and shows why we will NEVER comprehend gods thinking.

AarO)))n wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

If he completely and fully repented from the bottom of his heart, yes, he was forgiven.

Well that seems fair. He gets to murder at will and then, when faced with death, he gets to be forgiven an spend eternity in heaven. How many other people would have done the same, if only they had the opportunity? How many people are burning in hell right now for just not doing it in time? Not to mention those who were never given the chance to hear the word of your god. Seem a bit unjust and not very loving to me? But I know. We can never comprehend gods plan. Who are we to question? Well when Ted Bundy is in heaven and some tribal indian from the amazon is not. Just because one knew and the other didn't. I think that gives us every right to question, and shows why we will NEVER comprehend gods thinking.

Personally, I think that's more of a strict fundamentalist thing and is really just a cop-out for Christians to believe they're better than others. Remember, the Elephant.

Also, it's a LOT more of just saying "i'm sorry lolol"

I could give you an answer if I had read Paradise Lost recently.

ATTN: Dawn Bearer.

Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

"Its simple. If I have the ability to make decisions then nobody can know what they are before they have been made. If someone already knows what decision I will make, then I don't have free will - I don't have the choice to make an alternative decision.

Either god knows what I will do and I have no free will, or I have free will and God doesn't know the future.

A scientific response? Not particularly. A logical one, definitely"

That's the point, Thomas. You're applying laws of reason and logic on god, he wouldnt be much of a god if they applied on him now would they... And a third answer is god knows what you will do and you do have a free will.

Finally a point I agree with. God is indeed an illogical and irrational concept.

I think that this ultimately proves the utter futility of this whole thread. One arrives at the conclusion that the concept of God cannot be proven by any rational, logical, or empirical means. And contrary to what one might think, this view is not necessarily incompatible with religion (I know Kierkegaard advocated this, and he's probably the most important Christian philosopher of modern times). It simply leaves two possibilities: Either God doesn't exist, or the only way to truly know that he exists is not through objective means, but through subjective personal means, such as faith. And if one holds the latter view, there is really no way to prove to anyone else that God does exist, because it requires personal experiences of faith.

So the atheists will never be able to convince the truly faithful and vice versa because each side needs to rely on wholly different epistemolgical assumptions. The only thing really left to argue is whether it is possible to truly "know" something through faith the way one "knows" it through empirical and rational means.

AarO)))n wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

If he completely and fully repented from the bottom of his heart, yes, he was forgiven.

Well that seems fair. He gets to murder at will and then, when faced with death, he gets to be forgiven an spend eternity in heaven. How many other people would have done the same, if only they had the opportunity? How many people are burning in hell right now for just not doing it in time? Not to mention those who were never given the chance to hear the word of your god. Seem a bit unjust and not very loving to me? But I know. We can never comprehend gods plan. Who are we to question? Well when Ted Bundy is in heaven and some tribal indian from the amazon is not. Just because one knew and the other didn't. I think that gives us every right to question, and shows why we will NEVER comprehend gods thinking.

Forget Bundy for a moment, a far better case is that of Peter Sutcliffe (aka. the Yorkshire Ripper).

He was charged with the murder of thirteen women, an allegation he didn't deny. When asked why he did it, he just smiled and claimed he was obeying laws higher than those imposed by the government, and that he was carrying out God's divine will. He actually pleaded manslaughter, claiming that he was but an arm of God, and that the choice to kill them was not his own. Why would he repent? In his own eyes he had done precisely as was asked of him, ensuring his place in heaven.

Its almost amusing; someone goes to Africa in the name of God and they get called saviours and their faith is never questioned, yet kill a few people in the name of God and you get called a nutter and locked up in a Mental Hospital for the rest of your life.

Sign of the Black Mark wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

"Its simple. If I have the ability to make decisions then nobody can know what they are before they have been made. If someone already knows what decision I will make, then I don't have free will - I don't have the choice to make an alternative decision.

Either god knows what I will do and I have no free will, or I have free will and God doesn't know the future.

A scientific response? Not particularly. A logical one, definitely"

That's the point, Thomas. You're applying laws of reason and logic on god, he wouldnt be much of a god if they applied on him now would they... And a third answer is god knows what you will do and you do have a free will.

Finally a point I agree with. God is indeed an illogical and irrational concept.

I think that this ultimately proves the utter futility of this whole thread. One arrives at the conclusion that the concept of God cannot be proven by any rational, logical, or empirical means. And contrary to what one might think, this view is not necessarily incompatible with religion (I know Kierkegaard advocated this, and he's probably the most important Christian philosopher of modern times). It simply leaves two possibilities: Either God doesn't exist, or the only way to truly know that he exists is not through objective means, but through subjective personal means, such as faith. And if one holds the latter view, there is really no way to prove to anyone else that God does exist, because it requires personal experiences of faith.

So the atheists will never be able to convince the truly faithful and vice versa because each side needs to rely on wholly different epistemolgical assumptions. The only thing really left to argue is whether it is possible to truly "know" something through faith the way one "knows" it through empirical and rational means.

You may have missed my "Dragon in the Garage" recommendation.
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm

I agree with this story, and have no intention to prove or disprove God's existence. My argument was that his existence defies logic and removes our free will. Perhaps im naive, but at the end of the day I have faith in my ability to use rationale and logic to make my own decisions and write my own destiny.

Nautilus wrote:

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Personally, I think that's more of a strict fundamentalist thing and is really just a cop-out for Christians to believe they're better than others. Remember, the Elephant.

What is a fundamentalist cop-out? You are losing me. No I don't remember the elephant.

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Also, it's a LOT more of just saying "i'm sorry lolol"

Like what? What are the magic words? You have to truly believe it in your heart of hearts right? Well who is to say who does and who doesn't? So is this decision then left to god? If so, how do I know if I am doing it right? Perhaps I mean it but god doesn't believe me because I am not doing it right. According to John 3:16 all I have to do is believe that Jesus died for my sins and all is forgiven. That bible verse is the very foundation for which christianity is based on.