Rosalind wrote:

Forget Bundy for a moment, a far better case is that of Peter Sutcliffe (aka. the Yorkshire Ripper).

He was charged with the murder of thirteen women, an allegation he didn't deny. When asked why he did it, he just smiled and claimed he was obeying laws higher than those imposed by the government, and that he was carrying out God's divine will. He actually pleaded manslaughter, claiming that he was but an arm of God, and that the choice to kill them was not his own. Why would he repent? In his own eyes he had done precisely as was asked of him, ensuring his place in heaven.

Its almost amusing; someone goes to Africa in the name of God and they get called saviours and their faith is never questioned, yet kill a few people in the name of God and you get called a nutter and locked up in a Mental Hospital for the rest of your life.

Good point. Much like George Bush's feeling's with Iraq. He honestly believed that what he was doing was gods will. So no matter how much he was told he was wrong, it mattered not. Because he(like Hebrew National) answers to a higher calling.

I'm not sure if I see the argument here. Because people do bad things in the name of God is not proof for his nonexistence.

Just because somebody truly believes they're doing something in God's name doesn't make it right or true. The Yorkshire Ripper may well have been instructed by God, and he may not have been and was just delusional.

The elephant - four blind men stumble across an elephant. One, feeling his trunk, declares it's a snake. One, feeling the side, declares it's a wall. One, feeling the leg, declares it's a tree. And the last one feels the tusk and says it's a spear.

We can only interpret God because we are limited. A lot of fundies claim their way is the ONLY right way but for me, I think that pretty much all religions are the same god, they're just different interpretations of it.

Also, it's not just believing. Because to believe is to also do his will.

Kamikaze wrote:

I'm not sure if I see the argument here. Because people do bad things in the name of God is not proof for his nonexistence.

The argument that I think Thomas was making and I was agreeing with and showing another example of. Was someone doing evil things in "gods" name, and why they would not repent for them. Because they think what they did was the will of god. Referring more to some of Mosafa's posts then the overall topic topic.

Nautilus wrote:

Just because somebody truly believes they're doing something in God's name doesn't make it right or true. The Yorkshire Ripper may well have been instructed by God, and he may not have been and was just delusional.

"Right" and "truth" was never what I was implying. I don't doubt his faith any more than I doubt yours or Mostafa's, but you said it yourself, you may just be deluding yourself.

You're elephant reference is also slightly off. A better interpretation would be to have three people feel absolutely nothing, claim to have felt something different then started a fight to death with one another over it

Nautilus wrote:

Quote :

Just because somebody truly believes they're doing something in God's name doesn't make it right or true. The Yorkshire Ripper may well have been instructed by God, and he may not have been and was just delusional.

But that could go both ways. Take away the murders. You just as delusional as he is. You both believe in the existence of a god you can't see and do his bidding. Yours is doing right things. His is murder. But you both truly believe.

Quote :

The elephant - four blind men stumble across an elephant. One, feeling his trunk, declares it's a snake. One, feeling the side, declares it's a wall. One, feeling the leg, declares it's a tree. And the last one feels the tusk and says it's a spear.

That doesn't make them right. I think you would agree that the guy Thomas is talking about has the wrong interpretation of god right? If I say the world is flat will it make it so? God is not art to be interpreted any way you see fit. There are strict guidelines and rules that come with believing in him. Now you may call these people "fudis" and wrong. But that is their interpretation. So are they wrong and your right? Or vice versa? Or is it that you are both right? Even though you don't agree.

Quote :

We can only interpret God because we are limited. A lot of fundies claim their way is the ONLY right way but for me, I think that pretty much all religions are the same god, they're just different interpretations of it

.
So then the murderer that Thomas spoke of is just as much of a believer as you. He just interprets in differently. So for him he is just doing what god told him to do, and since you think all religions worship the same god, perhaps he should be set free?

Just since Alex brought up something similar, I figured I'd take this time to quote Franz Bardon.

Quote :

He will find that every religion has its good aspects, but also a dark side. Therefore he will keep the best for himself and pay no attention to the weaknesses.

And just something else Bardon wrote I thought I'd add to the conversation.

Quote :

The concept of God serves the average man as a support or as a point of reference for his spirit in order to be free of uncertainty and not get lost. That is why his God remains always incomprehensible, inconceivable and unimaginable.

AarO)))n wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Quote :

Just because somebody truly believes they're doing something in God's name doesn't make it right or true. The Yorkshire Ripper may well have been instructed by God, and he may not have been and was just delusional.

But that could go both ways. Take away the murders. You just as delusional as he is. You both believe in the existence of a god you can't see and do his bidding. Yours is doing right things. His is murder. But you both truly believe.

And I'm not doubting it. And the way I've interpreted is that he is wrong. Just because there are different viewpoints doesn't necessarily make them all objectively right, but I don't know for sure. I feel that he's wrong according to my own moral code/beliefs, but as far as I know maybe it was supposed to be that way.

AarO)))n wrote:

Quote :

The elephant - four blind men stumble across an elephant. One, feeling his trunk, declares it's a snake. One, feeling the side, declares it's a wall. One, feeling the leg, declares it's a tree. And the last one feels the tusk and says it's a spear.

That doesn't make them right. I think you would agree that the guy Thomas is talking about has the wrong interpretation of god right? If I say the world is flat will it make it so? God is not art to be interpreted any way you see fit. There are strict guidelines and rules that come with believing in him. Now you may call these people "fudis" and wrong. But that is their interpretation. So are they wrong and your right? Or vice versa? Or is it that you are both right? Even though you don't agree.

And those guidelines/rules are? Just because there are different interpretations doesn't make them all equal. But then, I don't know. It's not my place to judge on God's behalf, because I don't know what he wants for anyone except for me. And even then, it's a trying task.

AarO)))n wrote:

Quote :

We can only interpret God because we are limited. A lot of fundies claim their way is the ONLY right way but for me, I think that pretty much all religions are the same god, they're just different interpretations of it

.
So then the murderer that Thomas spoke of is just as much of a believer as you. He just interprets in differently. So for him he is just doing what god told him to do, and since you think all religions worship the same god, perhaps he should be set free?

If he believed he believed. But it's not just faith - works, also. There's a huge debate in the Church about which is more important, but they have to work together. In the "faith-only" conundrum, Ghandi would go to hell while the Yorkshire Ripper would go to heaven. But I (and this is just my interpretation) believe that God would care more about what you have done with your body AND soul, together. Sometimes people can do great things without even realizing it.

There's a real common question - "Why can't you just be a good person without doing it for God?!" but that's the thing. Being a good person IS doing it for God, whether you know - or like - it or not.

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Just because somebody truly believes they're doing something in God's name doesn't make it right or true. The Yorkshire Ripper may well have been instructed by God, and he may not have been and was just delusional.

"Right" and "truth" was never what I was implying. I don't doubt his faith any more than I doubt yours or Mostafa's, but you said it yourself, you may just be deluding yourself.

You're elephant reference is also slightly off. A better interpretation would be to have three people feel absolutely nothing, claim to have felt something different then started a fight to death with one another over it

I've certainly felt something. I don't know what you keep talking about how God's never interacted with you.

Nautilus wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Just because somebody truly believes they're doing something in God's name doesn't make it right or true. The Yorkshire Ripper may well have been instructed by God, and he may not have been and was just delusional.

"Right" and "truth" was never what I was implying. I don't doubt his faith any more than I doubt yours or Mostafa's, but you said it yourself, you may just be deluding yourself.

You're elephant reference is also slightly off. A better interpretation would be to have three people feel absolutely nothing, claim to have felt something different then started a fight to death with one another over it

I've certainly felt something. I don't know what you keep talking about how God's never interacted with you.

His followers have interacted with me less than the shit coming out my ass. He hasn't at all.

If I bought a knife, and Aaron stabbed you with it, did I interact with you?

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Just because somebody truly believes they're doing something in God's name doesn't make it right or true. The Yorkshire Ripper may well have been instructed by God, and he may not have been and was just delusional.

"Right" and "truth" was never what I was implying. I don't doubt his faith any more than I doubt yours or Mostafa's, but you said it yourself, you may just be deluding yourself.

You're elephant reference is also slightly off. A better interpretation would be to have three people feel absolutely nothing, claim to have felt something different then started a fight to death with one another over it

I've certainly felt something. I don't know what you keep talking about how God's never interacted with you.

His followers have interacted with me less than the shit coming out my ass. He hasn't at all.

If I bought a knife, and Aaron stabbed you with it, did I interact with you?

Indirectly I suppose, by handing him the knife. That's called "aiding and abetting" in legalese.

But I'm not talking about his followers, I'm talking about him.

Nautilus wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Just because somebody truly believes they're doing something in God's name doesn't make it right or true. The Yorkshire Ripper may well have been instructed by God, and he may not have been and was just delusional.

"Right" and "truth" was never what I was implying. I don't doubt his faith any more than I doubt yours or Mostafa's, but you said it yourself, you may just be deluding yourself.

You're elephant reference is also slightly off. A better interpretation would be to have three people feel absolutely nothing, claim to have felt something different then started a fight to death with one another over it

I've certainly felt something. I don't know what you keep talking about how God's never interacted with you.

His followers have interacted with me less than the shit coming out my ass. He hasn't at all.

If I bought a knife, and Aaron stabbed you with it, did I interact with you?

Indirectly I suppose, by handing him the knife. That's called "aiding and abetting" in legalese.

But I'm not talking about his followers, I'm talking about him.

Assuming he didn't just take it. But how has he physically affected me? And don't give me that "you dont realise it" bollocks. The pet dragon in my living room is allergic to bullshit.

AarO)))n wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Quote :

You dont go to hell because you dont love god >.< you go because of your wrong deeds, such as adultery, murder, theft and such. I choose to do right.

According the christian god. Your acts have nothing to do with it. John 3:16 "For god so loved the world he gave his only begotten son. That whoever believes in him will not perish, but have eternal life." No where are your works put in there. In fact you know who is in heaven right now according to this belief. Ted Bundy. He murdered over 50 women. But at the 11th hour he chose jesus as his saviour. So he gets to go to heaven. That is fair right?
According to my knowledge, the currently existing christian bible is hand written by 44 people over a very long time, so, so much for it being word of god. Your deeds are what lead you to heaven or hell. No he doesnt, because A) he shoudl've chosen god not jesus
B) You cant redeem a life's time actions in the final hours before you die, but if he did try to redeem before he got caught, who knows, he might've been forgiven.

Quote :

The purpose of life is working for the after life, you'd compare a life of 60 years of earthly joy to an eternity of heavinly one ?

So you only do the right thing because you hope to be reward for it? I do the the right thing because it is the right thing. My reward is helping others. Of course your reward is dependent on the excistence of this heaven. Where as my reward is given to me every day.
How then do you what you're doing is the right thing? maybe it's the wrong thing from another point of view. I do right because it's right and I shall get rewarded - if god wills - for it by an eternity of happiness.

Quote :

It's kind of condesending to think you wouldnt make a mistake like anyone else, only god would know what you would've done, also, for example, you do know drinking is bad for your health, yet you drink; see my point ?

So is it condescending to say that I would not have murdered 50 women like Ted Bundy. How so? It shows that I have morals. So do you not know what you are going to do in any situation until it arrives? You plan nothing? I can say that I would not have made that decision because I know how I am. If given that choice and living where they were living why put it all in jeopardy for a life of pain and torment? So are you saying you would have done the same thing? Why when you know what the consequences are for their actions? Do you not learn from their mistakes? I do and that is why I KNOW I would not have done it. I drink out of free will. I choose to do it. Not tempted by a talking snake(though I have seen some after drinking )
If you were in his shoes and got the same parenting - if it existed - and had the same mentality, then you probably would. I myself wouldnt've done the same because I know the consequences; but Adam and Eve didnt know them, the apple was just forbidden by it and they ate it in a moment of weakness, happens to every human being on this earth, and I dont suppose you're an alien , and also comparing murder to eating an apple ?! they though it was just a harmless apple. That free will of yours is satan's seduction - avoiding your sarcasm, no you cant hear him seduce you.

Quote :

Ofcourse it's Adam and Eve's fault, Satan only has the power of seduction on man, they weakened and made a mistake by their own free will, and god forgave them later for that mistake.

How did he forgive them? By making child birth come with pain and man being forced to work for his food? No. Instead he punished them for it and the rest of humanity for eternity. For what? A monment of weakness. Once again. Is that really fair?
He forgave them by promising them heaven after a life time on earth. Life is hard, that's why you gotta work your ass off in this life, to win the after one, you sound as if you want an easy life with no pain or effort. We didnt get punished ! you choose right, you'll get rewarded not punished.

Quote :

It's true we can never comprehend god. But you compared a 2 year old kid to mature people, not to god. How are we paying for it ? if it werent for that moment of weakness we all wouldnt be here, as I've said, one thing must lead to another.

Because in comparison we are like 2 year olds to gods infinite wisdom. You eluded to it yourself, "It's true we can never comprehend god.". How would we not be here? Adam and Eve were not going to populate the earth until they went against god? Also, you are proving my point about the set up by god. He allowed it to happen so he could play out his game. Also, proving no free will. If he is a god then he could make it happen any way he chooses. So why this way? (I now await the standard believers answer. who are we to question god or god works in mysterious ways)
They didnt go against god, you dont have your facts straight. They were kicked out of heaven for what they did - then got forgave them . You can call it what you want, if god wanted another way for man to exist on earth he would've done it, he chose this one and Adam came to earth to populate it with his breed. You're asking a question with no possible response, it's like asking me why do I pray 5 times a day. Why are you named Aaron ? your parents chose it.

Quote :

So we can exist on this Earth, not for "shits and giggles" >.<

So Adam and Eve didn't exist before? There was no other way to get them to fuck and populate the earth? Or was there no other way to make us all subservient to god and force us to love him?

First of all, you should show some respect, even if it goes against your beliefs, common curtesy seriously..God chose this way for whatever reasons of his. And he doesnt need to force us to love him, the smart ones already do.

An epicly long response that will eventually change nothing at all, oh, religious debates.

Manners guys. Where the hell are your manners? I feel like participating in this discussion but I don't know where to start.

Mostafa wrote:

AarO)))n wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Quote :

You dont go to hell because you dont love god >.< you go because of your wrong deeds, such as adultery, murder, theft and such. I choose to do right.

According the christian god. Your acts have nothing to do with it. John 3:16 "For god so loved the world he gave his only begotten son. That whoever believes in him will not perish, but have eternal life." No where are your works put in there. In fact you know who is in heaven right now according to this belief. Ted Bundy. He murdered over 50 women. But at the 11th hour he chose jesus as his saviour. So he gets to go to heaven. That is fair right?
According to my knowledge, the currently existing christian bible is hand written by 44 people over a very long time, so, so much for it being word of god. Your deeds are what lead you to heaven or hell. No he doesnt, because A) he shoudl've chosen god not jesus
B) You cant redeem a life's time actions in the final hours before you die, but if he did try to redeem before he got caught, who knows, he might've been forgiven.

Quote :

The purpose of life is working for the after life, you'd compare a life of 60 years of earthly joy to an eternity of heavinly one ?

So you only do the right thing because you hope to be reward for it? I do the the right thing because it is the right thing. My reward is helping others. Of course your reward is dependent on the excistence of this heaven. Where as my reward is given to me every day.
How then do you what you're doing is the right thing? maybe it's the wrong thing from another point of view. I do right because it's right and I shall get rewarded - if god wills - for it by an eternity of happiness.

Quote :

It's kind of condesending to think you wouldnt make a mistake like anyone else, only god would know what you would've done, also, for example, you do know drinking is bad for your health, yet you drink; see my point ?

So is it condescending to say that I would not have murdered 50 women like Ted Bundy. How so? It shows that I have morals. So do you not know what you are going to do in any situation until it arrives? You plan nothing? I can say that I would not have made that decision because I know how I am. If given that choice and living where they were living why put it all in jeopardy for a life of pain and torment? So are you saying you would have done the same thing? Why when you know what the consequences are for their actions? Do you not learn from their mistakes? I do and that is why I KNOW I would not have done it. I drink out of free will. I choose to do it. Not tempted by a talking snake(though I have seen some after drinking )
If you were in his shoes and got the same parenting - if it existed - and had the same mentality, then you probably would. I myself wouldnt've done the same because I know the consequences; but Adam and Eve didnt know them, the apple was just forbidden by it and they ate it in a moment of weakness, happens to every human being on this earth, and I dont suppose you're an alien , and also comparing murder to eating an apple ?! they though it was just a harmless apple. That free will of yours is satan's seduction - avoiding your sarcasm, no you cant hear him seduce you.

Quote :

Ofcourse it's Adam and Eve's fault, Satan only has the power of seduction on man, they weakened and made a mistake by their own free will, and god forgave them later for that mistake.

How did he forgive them? By making child birth come with pain and man being forced to work for his food? No. Instead he punished them for it and the rest of humanity for eternity. For what? A monment of weakness. Once again. Is that really fair?
He forgave them by promising them heaven after a life time on earth. Life is hard, that's why you gotta work your ass off in this life, to win the after one, you sound as if you want an easy life with no pain or effort. We didnt get punished ! you choose right, you'll get rewarded not punished.

Quote :

It's true we can never comprehend god. But you compared a 2 year old kid to mature people, not to god. How are we paying for it ? if it werent for that moment of weakness we all wouldnt be here, as I've said, one thing must lead to another.

Because in comparison we are like 2 year olds to gods infinite wisdom. You eluded to it yourself, "It's true we can never comprehend god.". How would we not be here? Adam and Eve were not going to populate the earth until they went against god? Also, you are proving my point about the set up by god. He allowed it to happen so he could play out his game. Also, proving no free will. If he is a god then he could make it happen any way he chooses. So why this way? (I now await the standard believers answer. who are we to question god or god works in mysterious ways)
They didnt go against god, you dont have your facts straight. They were kicked out of heaven for what they did - then got forgave them . You can call it what you want, if god wanted another way for man to exist on earth he would've done it, he chose this one and Adam came to earth to populate it with his breed. You're asking a question with no possible response, it's like asking me why do I pray 5 times a day. Why are you named Aaron ? your parents chose it.

Quote :

So we can exist on this Earth, not for "shits and giggles" >.<

So Adam and Eve didn't exist before? There was no other way to get them to fuck and populate the earth? Or was there no other way to make us all subservient to god and force us to love him?

First of all, you should show some respect, even if it goes against your beliefs, common curtesy seriously..God chose this way for whatever reasons of his. And he doesnt need to force us to love him, the smart ones already do.

An epicly long response that will eventually change nothing at all, oh, religious debates.

I didn't see anything in here that was overtly disrespectful. What got your panties in a twist Mostafa?

I feel left out, five pages since my last post and no one has responded to me

What is god's plan then, if he created everything, then he created whatever problem it is that requires such a diabolical plan to solve. What is God's screw up that it is so epic that this person has to get cancer, and that the jewish people during Nazi era Germany had to suffer for (read descriptions of what it would have been like to die in the gas chambers, what exactly would require someone to suffer like that? Don't know if I'm a big fan of a God who creates "plans" like this).

As far as not understanding God, that is correct. If you are all powerful, all knowing, ever present, master of the universe and you could do whatever you wanted why would you come up with such a sadistic "plan" to achieve whatever it is that you are trying to achieve?

Mostafa wrote:

Silchias Ruin wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

That's rather a very weak point; god created evil so people can choose between it and good, hence heaven and hell; it's called reason for being or existing. Did you think would create all people good and kind ? what's the point then ? I'am sure you dont think your purpose in life is sit around all day, go to work, drink beer and listen to music do you?

If god is "perfectly good" why would he allow people to suffer. If you saw some who was hurt and just sat watched them suffer it would be hard to argue that you are "perfectly good". Yet God sits by and watches people suffer even though he is supposedly all knowing and all powerful.

Sure YOU could choose to be evil, but why does he allow YOU to make other people who have not decided to be evil suffer.

This question has been debated in Philosophical schools for centuries, maybe a three sentence response is not quiet enough to soundly refute the argument.

God allows people to suffer for reasons like; some deserve to have pain in this life, others didnt appreciate the blesses that were given to them - that they take so granted - like health, so it's taken from them and many other reasons. If a friend of mine or a close person is dying out of cancer for say, I wouldnt sit around and start calling god evil, no, I'd believe that this is god's will and he's done to reasons that may not be known to us, it's faith.

This question has been debated in Philosophical schools for centuries, maybe a three sentence response is not quiet enough to soundly refute the argument.

True.[/quote]

Quote :

God allows people to suffer for reasons like; some deserve to have pain in this life, others didnt appreciate the blesses that were given to them - that they take so granted - like health, so it's taken from them and many other reasons. If a friend of mine or a close person is dying out of cancer for say, I wouldnt sit around and start calling god evil, no, I'd believe that this is god's will and he's done to reasons that may not be known to us, it's faith.

Okay the Spartans (I think) use to throw babies off cliffs because the family had had too many girls or because there was some sort of visible defect with the child. So you are telling me that God decided to have those babies thrown off a cliff because they hadn't appreciated their blessings. Tell me exactly how a baby is supposed to show God that they are appreciating their blessings?

I'm going to try and point this out again, because I feel as though no one really paid attention the first time I said it. There are two main reasons that God would not intervene to prevent evil and suffering in the world:
1. This would intervene in human free will
2. God ultimately will punish the injustices of this world in the afterlife.
So yes, while allowing random and pointless suffering may not seem compatible with a "good" God, the suffering of eternal damnation would ultimately be much worse than anything that could possibly happen to someone in the span of their human life. However, whether anyone really deserves a punishment which is necessarily greater than whatever crimes they could have committed is another debatable point

Mostafa wrote:

Quote :

According to my knowledge, the currently existing christian bible is hand written by 44 people over a very long time, so, so much for it being word of god. Your deeds are what lead you to heaven or hell. No he doesnt, because A) he shoudl've chosen god not jesus B) You cant redeem a life's time actions in the final hours before you die, but if he did try to redeem before he got caught, who knows, he might've been forgiven.

Well now you are showing the problem with religion. It is different for different for different people. So I am to believe that the bible you follow is written by god right? But not the christian bible. I wonder what the christians in the forum would have to say about that? He chose jesus be cause he believed him to be god's son and it would get him into heaven. Just as you believe he is not god's son and will not get you into heaven. So as long as I do it before it is almost too late. I can lead what ever type of life I want to lead? That doesn't seem right. But as you have shown. Religion can be interpreted in many ways.

Quote :

How then do you what you're doing is the right thing? maybe it's the wrong thing from another point of view. I do right because it's right and I shall get rewarded - if god wills - for it by an eternity of happiness.

Because as I have stated before. There are universal truths. Not killing is one of them. You do not have to be taught to know that is wrong. It is inherent in all of us. Though some choose not to follow it or are mentally incapable of knowing it. I do what is right because it is right. My reward is here on earth making it a better place. To do it for some hopeful reward seems a tad selfish to me.

Quote :

If you were in his shoes and got the same parenting - if it existed - and had the same mentality, then you probably would.

Well of course if I were like him the chances would increase. But I am not like him. Therefore I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would not do it. That does not make me condescending. It makes me self assured in my own moral compass.

Quote :

I myself wouldnt've done the same because I know the consequences; but Adam and Eve didnt know them, the apple was just forbidden by it and they ate it in a moment of weakness, happens to every human being on this earth, and I dont suppose you're an alien , and also comparing murder to eating an apple ?! they though it was just a harmless apple.

They did know the consequences. God told them to not eat from the tree of life or face banishment from the garden, at least in bible I was taught from.

Quote :

That free will of yours is satan's seduction - avoiding your sarcasm, no you cant hear him seduce you.

So now free- will is a manifestation of satan? I thought god gave it to us as a gift. But seeing as god created the devil I think I see what you are saying.

Quote :

He forgave them by promising them heaven after a life time on earth. Life is hard, that's why you gotta work your ass off in this life, to win the after one, you sound as if you want an easy life with no pain or effort. We didnt get punished ! you choose right, you'll get rewarded not punished.

Life is hard and you do have to work at it. But when I offered that up as the purpose of life you dismissed it. So which is it? We did get punished. I didn't eat from the tree. Did you? Yet because of two people whom I have never met, I am now forced to live a certain life style in order to get to heaven. Where if they had left it alone and god did not allow the devil to temp them, none of this would be necessary. A life style by the way that seems to be different depending on which "right" god you are worshiping.

Quote :

They didnt go against god, you dont have your facts straight. They were kicked out of heaven for what they did - then god forgave them . You can call it what you want, if god wanted another way for man to exist on earth he would've done it, he chose this one and Adam came to earth to populate it with his breed. You're asking a question with no possible response, it's like asking me why do I pray 5 times a day. Why are you named Aaron ? your parents chose it.

I think it is you who has the "facts" misconstrued. Every teaching I have ever heard has the garden of eden on earth(some have speculated that it was some where in the middle east). Did god not create the heaven and the earth. Then plants and animals. Then finally man in his own image and rested on the seventh day. This is right is it not? If so how were they kicked out of heaven? He gave them the garden of eden with one stipulation. DON"T EAT FROM THE TREE OF LIFE! Once they did they were banished from the garden and brought sin upon the world. Sin the every generation since has been paying for. That seems fair. With that logic. If I kill my wife tonight, you won't mind going to jail for me will you? God wanted it that way because it fit his plan. The same reason he created the devil. Every good guy needs a bad guy. With out it what do you have to fear? You pray 5 times a day because your religion demands it does it not? Or do you have the free-will to stop and still follow your beliefs?

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First of all, you should show some respect, even if it goes against your beliefs, common curtesy seriously..God chose this way for whatever reasons of his. And he doesnt need to force us to love him, the smart ones already do.

I am not trying to be disrespectful. Nor do I see where I have. The smart ones already do? Some would say the smart ones don't follow Islam or the way you choose to follow god. Are they right? He does force us to love him. As I have said before. He does so by saying, "Follow my way or die for all eternity." That is not much of a choice. It is the same as putting a gun to your head and telling you, "Do as I say or die." Have I really given you a choice at all? This is of course with out talking about the fact that god already knows how I am going to choose so I never really had a choice to begin with.

Sign of the Black Mark wrote:

So yes, while allowing random and pointless suffering may not seem compatible with a "good" God, the suffering of eternal damnation would ultimately be much worse than anything that could possibly happen to someone in the span of their human life. However, whether anyone really deserves a punishment which is necessarily greater than whatever crimes they could have committed is another debatable point

{bold face added by Silchias Ruin}

This was a large part of my original argument, God is represented as a perfectly good god, that loves humans. If it is in your control you don't allow people you love to suffer needlessly. The common argument is that it isn't needless , but that it is part of God's plan. If it is part of a preordained plan then it isn't free will. As far as punishing people in the next life, God created the fucked up world that drives people to do some fucked up things, and then he sends them to hell. Lets take something like Rwanda. If God was good, he would send some more prophets, who could do some kind of amazing feat like split the seas etc. to establish themselves as messengers, and give some guidance, in a time that was obviously in need of some moral guidance, instead did nothing. It isn't eliminating free will, it's just giving some guidance. Instead he/she holds an eternal punishment over everyone's head? This god is infinitely wise and this is the plan?

Sign of the Black Mark wrote:

I'm going to try and point this out again, because I feel as though no one really paid attention the first time I said it. There are two main reasons that God would not intervene to prevent evil and suffering in the world:

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1. This would intervene in human free will

Which god has never done right? Like flooding the earth to start over, or burning a city to the ground and turning a man wife into a pillar of salt, or sending plaques upon a multitude of Egyptians, or allow the devil to play games with a man named Lot, or providing Moses with tablets of law, parting a Red Sea, giving Jacob the power to slay a giant, and so on, and so on. I seems god did a lot of intervening in the bible. I have only scratched the surface of it really. I mean I didn't even mention the Tower of Bable which is supposedly the reason we all speak different languages. It seems when it fit his plans for the bible story. He is more than willing to intervene to make it happen. But millions dying all over the world now. Nothing he can do right? Of course the story is over, no need to prove himself any more right?

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2. God ultimately will punish the injustices of this world in the afterlife.

But who are the unjust? Ask some and they will tell you anyone who doesn't follow christianity. Ask another and they will say anyone that does not follow the teachings of Islam. Do you think that the Jewish people take solace in knowing that those nazis that escaped to Central America to never face prosecution for their crimes, instead will face a fate of hell? I don't. Neither do they. That is why they formed hit squads to find them and bring them to justice or kill them. Just as they did to the hostage takers in Munich.

Why are you guys so hung up on free will anyway? It may or may not be real but there's no way we can tell and it doesn't matter. Whether that ham sandwich is predetermined or not makes no difference - it still happens, whether you had the choice or if you didn't. And there is absolutely NOTHING we can do about it.

Free will doesn't really matter, tbh.

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Because as I have stated before. There are universal truths. Not killing is one of them. You do not have to be taught to know that is wrong. It is inherent in all of us. Though some choose not to follow it or are mentally incapable of knowing it.

What if you come a tribe of headhunters in the Amazon. Then you wouldn't see killing as wrong. It would be a way of life. The only reason you accept killing to be wrong is because your culture has drilled it into you. If the law never said killing is wrong do you think you would still think as you do?

On the topic of Free Will, I found this to be a good read.

http://www.beingjewish.com/soul/freewill.html