A bit off topic but, Mostafa have you read the Qu'ran in English? I've studied quite a bit about different Islamic societies and histories and such but haven't actually read the Qu'ran. I've heard the translation from Classical Arabic to Modern English doesn't make it easy though.

Mostafa wrote:

@ Aaron: Since my long reply got deleted while I was sending it, I cba tbqh to write another one, specialy as I know it would make no difference, but I just want to clear out a few points.

Jesus never said he was a god or is omnipotent any where in the bible, infact, he suffered sometimes in life, starved at others, also didnt know the future. These all arent the charectristics of a god.

You said something along the lines "every teaching I've heard of" well, I'am sure you havent enough knowledge on the Qu'ran, it has different facts from the one's you've stated. So, you should check it out in your spare time, sometime.

In my religion, doing right which leads you to heaven, is the also right by earthly standards - meaning two people cant disagree on it - for instance, adultery, drinking, murder, theft, disobeying parent and abusing them, and many other things we dont do shouldnt be right by anyone's "moral compass".

That respect point I mentioned wasnt towards me, but using words like "Adam and eve fuck" isnt exactly respect to someone's religous beliefs.

One question to wrap things up, humor me for a second here, let's just say I'am right, dont you think an eternity of suffering due to disbelief in god, is worth a little more examining by you before seiling things up ?

Jesus isn't God, he was the son of God (according to Christianity). Maybe an error on Aaron's part, but thats a pretty obvious mistake right there

Humouring you: assuming you are right, and God sentences me to a lifetime of eternal damnation for not having belief in him, I still call him an asshole for creating me in a way that wouldn't allow me to have faith. He knew where I was going before I was born and so if I didn't please him then its his damn fault seeing as he was controlling my destiny and whatnot

son_ov_hades wrote:

A bit off topic but, Mostafa have you read the Qu'ran in English? I've studied quite a bit about different Islamic societies and histories and such but haven't actually read the Qu'ran. I've heard the translation from Classical Arabic to Modern English doesn't make it easy though.

I'am afraid not , It wont be easy I tell you, but it also wont be hard. You should go and try reading even bits of it, would be a good experience I asure you, specialy for someone interested in middle eastern cultures and religions as yourself.

Mostafa wrote:

son_ov_hades wrote:

A bit off topic but, Mostafa have you read the Qu'ran in English? I've studied quite a bit about different Islamic societies and histories and such but haven't actually read the Qu'ran. I've heard the translation from Classical Arabic to Modern English doesn't make it easy though.

I'am afraid not , It wont be easy I tell you, but it also wont be hard. You should go and try reading even bits of it, would be a good experience I asure you, specialy for someone interested in middle eastern cultures and religions as yourself.

Yeah I'm gonna give it a shot once I have a bit more time.

Quote :

Jesus isn't God, he was the son of God (according to Christianity). Maybe an error on Aaron's part, but thats a pretty obvious mistake right there Razz

Jesus is God though in Christianity. The father, the son, and the holy spirit are three leaves of the same clover, or so I've heard it described.

Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

@ Aaron: Since my long reply got deleted while I was sending it, I cba tbqh to write another one, specialy as I know it would make no difference, but I just want to clear out a few points.

Jesus never said he was a god or is omnipotent any where in the bible, infact, he suffered sometimes in life, starved at others, also didnt know the future. These all arent the charectristics of a god.

You said something along the lines "every teaching I've heard of" well, I'am sure you havent enough knowledge on the Qu'ran, it has different facts from the one's you've stated. So, you should check it out in your spare time, sometime.

In my religion, doing right which leads you to heaven, is the also right by earthly standards - meaning two people cant disagree on it - for instance, adultery, drinking, murder, theft, disobeying parent and abusing them, and many other things we dont do shouldnt be right by anyone's "moral compass".

That respect point I mentioned wasnt towards me, but using words like "Adam and eve fuck" isnt exactly respect to someone's religous beliefs.

One question to wrap things up, humor me for a second here, let's just say I'am right, dont you think an eternity of suffering due to disbelief in god, is worth a little more examining by you before seiling things up ?

Jesus isn't God, he was the son of God (according to Christianity). Maybe an error on Aaron's part, but thats a pretty obvious mistake right there

Humouring you: assuming you are right, and God sentences me to a lifetime of eternal damnation for not having belief in him, I still call him an asshole for creating me in a way that wouldn't allow me to have faith. He knew where I was going before I was born and so if I didn't please him then its his damn fault seeing as he was controlling my destiny and whatnot

Actually, christians believe that jesus is god's son, true, but he and god and the holy spirit are all one not 3, and have godly powers; both arent true.

He didnt allow you to grow in any way, you choose what you belief in for yourself, you made that choice not god, he just knew you'd make it before you're born, and since it was your choice, he doesnt need to change it as it was YOUR own choice. Anyways, you should be able to complain it all to him when you die.

Rosalind wrote:

Jesus isn't God, he was the son of God (according to Christianity). Maybe an error on Aaron's part, but thats a pretty obvious mistake right there

Most mainstream Christian sects (Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox) actually believe the Holy Trinity concept of God being one being but also three beings, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, at the same time. Jesus is considered to be both fully human, but also fully divine, so he technically is considered to be God, or at least one of the three beings which are also one being. I know that there was at least a substantial minority that didn't buy into this view into this view in the early church, but they were gradually wiped out by at least the 7th to 8th century, and the only modern exceptions I can think of are the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. As far as a rational explanation of why this makes sense, I remember being taught that it is a "holy mystery", which basically means that there's no conceivable way for it to make sense.

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

@ Aaron: Since my long reply got deleted while I was sending it, I cba tbqh to write another one, specialy as I know it would make no difference, but I just want to clear out a few points.

Jesus never said he was a god or is omnipotent any where in the bible, infact, he suffered sometimes in life, starved at others, also didnt know the future. These all arent the charectristics of a god.

You said something along the lines "every teaching I've heard of" well, I'am sure you havent enough knowledge on the Qu'ran, it has different facts from the one's you've stated. So, you should check it out in your spare time, sometime.

In my religion, doing right which leads you to heaven, is the also right by earthly standards - meaning two people cant disagree on it - for instance, adultery, drinking, murder, theft, disobeying parent and abusing them, and many other things we dont do shouldnt be right by anyone's "moral compass".

That respect point I mentioned wasnt towards me, but using words like "Adam and eve fuck" isnt exactly respect to someone's religous beliefs.

One question to wrap things up, humor me for a second here, let's just say I'am right, dont you think an eternity of suffering due to disbelief in god, is worth a little more examining by you before seiling things up ?

Jesus isn't God, he was the son of God (according to Christianity). Maybe an error on Aaron's part, but thats a pretty obvious mistake right there

Humouring you: assuming you are right, and God sentences me to a lifetime of eternal damnation for not having belief in him, I still call him an asshole for creating me in a way that wouldn't allow me to have faith. He knew where I was going before I was born and so if I didn't please him then its his damn fault seeing as he was controlling my destiny and whatnot

Actually, christians believe that jesus is god's son, true, but he and god and the holy spirit are all one not 3, and have godly powers; both arent true.

He didnt allow you to grow in any way, you choose what you belief in for yourself, you made that choice not god, he just knew you'd make it before you're born, and since it was your choice, he doesnt need to change it as it was YOUR own choice. Anyways, you should be able to complain it all to him when you die.

Not getting into this again. I wouldn't have had the free will of choice if it was already my destiny to not believe.

But what makes you think I had the choice to begin with? You think I could snap my fingers and declare I had faith? Would God in his infinite wisdom not be capable of seeing that I was lying to myself?

I don't see it as a choice, rather a fact about myself, no more readily changed than my sexual orientation or the size of my huge wang. I've been quoted the Qu'ran by Muslims too drunk to walk without leaning on me, eaten bacon sandwiches with a Hindu friend and walked past the catholic school near where I grew up with one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the county. You think they really have faith? Or are just fooling themselves into believing as a result of their upbringing?

Don't get me wrong, there are those who truly do have unquestionable faith, but I don't. And I'm more content in acknowledging that fact than trying to fool myself otherwise.

Mostafa wrote:

@ Aaron: Since my long reply got deleted while I was sending it, I cba tbqh to write another one, specialy as I know it would make no difference, but I just want to clear out a few points.

Quote :

Jesus never said he was a god or is omnipotent any where in the bible, infact, he suffered sometimes in life, starved at others, also didnt know the future. These all arent the charectristics of a god.

First question. Which bible? Because you think yours is right. Yet MANY others would disagree. He was the son of god. Born sinless. Which is why he was born of a virgin(though that is never said in the bible but universally agreed upon in christianity anyways). He did suffer and did starve yes. But this was to symbolize the suffering that he was taking in place of our own. After all he was dying for our sins. He did know the future. He said at the last supper that one among them had already sinned against him(see Judas) and that before the rooster crowed, Matthew would deny him three times, and both happened. So is he a sooth sayer or the son of god?

Quote :

You said something along the lines "every teaching I've heard of" well, I'am sure you havent enough knowledge on the Qu'ran, it has different facts from the one's you've stated. So, you should check it out in your spare time, sometime.

See this is where religion losses ground. You believe yours is right, and you should. But guess what, so do christians and their beliefs in their bible is as strong as yours. Telling their children the same thing you were taught. that they are right and the rest is wrong. The same goes for every religion. Believing you are right does not make it so.

Quote :

In my religion, doing right which leads you to heaven, is the also right by earthly standards - meaning two people cant disagree on it - for instance, adultery, drinking, murder, theft, disobeying parent and abusing them, and many other things we dont do shouldnt be right by anyone's "moral compass".

I agree completely. But I don't think we need religion to know these things. They are inherent in all of us from birth.

Quote :

That respect point I mentioned wasnt towards me, but using words like "Adam and eve fuck" isnt exactly respect to someone's religous beliefs.

"Fuck" was used as euphemism for sex. Not as a slight against your beliefs. It is not as though they are saints. But if I unintentionally offended you, then I am sorry.

Quote :

One question to wrap things up, humor me for a second here, let's just say I'am right, dont you think an eternity of suffering due to disbelief in god, is worth a little more examining by you before seiling things up ?

What makes you think I have not done my homework as far as religions? I attended sunday school (Catholic) from about age 9 to 17. I also attended a Christian jr high and high school. The one thing I have learned about religions is this. You all think you are right. So how am I to choose? Humor me. How will you feel when you die and you get to the pearly gates only to find out that they don't accept people of Islamic faith? Or one step further. They don't accept brown people. Considering all religions seems to be so exclusive in who does and doesn't go to heaven, who knows what the REAL criterion may actually be. Even you can't be for sure. That is why it is called faith. Here is one more question. Do you really believe, or are you just hedging your bet and hoping you have hitched your wagon to the right horse? Shouldn't you believe because you actually believe the teachings? Not because you have hope that it is the right one to get you to heaven even though you don't believe in the teachings.

Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

@ Aaron: Since my long reply got deleted while I was sending it, I cba tbqh to write another one, specialy as I know it would make no difference, but I just want to clear out a few points.

Jesus never said he was a god or is omnipotent any where in the bible, infact, he suffered sometimes in life, starved at others, also didnt know the future. These all arent the charectristics of a god.

You said something along the lines "every teaching I've heard of" well, I'am sure you havent enough knowledge on the Qu'ran, it has different facts from the one's you've stated. So, you should check it out in your spare time, sometime.

In my religion, doing right which leads you to heaven, is the also right by earthly standards - meaning two people cant disagree on it - for instance, adultery, drinking, murder, theft, disobeying parent and abusing them, and many other things we dont do shouldnt be right by anyone's "moral compass".

That respect point I mentioned wasnt towards me, but using words like "Adam and eve fuck" isnt exactly respect to someone's religous beliefs.

One question to wrap things up, humor me for a second here, let's just say I'am right, dont you think an eternity of suffering due to disbelief in god, is worth a little more examining by you before seiling things up ?

Jesus isn't God, he was the son of God (according to Christianity). Maybe an error on Aaron's part, but thats a pretty obvious mistake right there

Humouring you: assuming you are right, and God sentences me to a lifetime of eternal damnation for not having belief in him, I still call him an asshole for creating me in a way that wouldn't allow me to have faith. He knew where I was going before I was born and so if I didn't please him then its his damn fault seeing as he was controlling my destiny and whatnot

Actually, christians believe that jesus is god's son, true, but he and god and the holy spirit are all one not 3, and have godly powers; both arent true.

He didnt allow you to grow in any way, you choose what you belief in for yourself, you made that choice not god, he just knew you'd make it before you're born, and since it was your choice, he doesnt need to change it as it was YOUR own choice. Anyways, you should be able to complain it all to him when you die.

Not getting into this again. I wouldn't have had the free will of choice if it was already my destiny to not believe.

But what makes you think I had the choice to begin with? You think I could snap my fingers and declare I had faith? Would God in his infinite wisdom not be capable of seeing that I was lying to myself?

I don't see it as a choice, rather a fact about myself, no more readily changed than my sexual orientation or the size of my huge wang. I've been quoted the Qu'ran by Muslims too drunk to walk without leaning on me, eaten bacon sandwiches with a Hindu friend and walked past the catholic school near where I grew up with one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the county. You think they really have faith? Or are just fooling themselves into believing as a result of their upbringing?

Don't get me wrong, there are those who truly do have unquestionable faith, but I don't. And I'm more content in acknowledging that fact than trying to fool myself otherwise.

Right now, you can snap your fingers and say I will start believing, it's only your will to do so that determines your faith, nothing more. Whether it's true or not, is between you and god.

I never claimed all muslims had true faith. In my religion early christians go to heaven as well as they had true belief in god. Now adays, most are hypocrits, there also a good deal of muslims with no faith and are sinners.

Sign of the Black Mark wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Jesus isn't God, he was the son of God (according to Christianity). Maybe an error on Aaron's part, but thats a pretty obvious mistake right there

Most mainstream Christian sects (Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox) actually believe the Holy Trinity concept of God being one being but also three beings, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, at the same time. Jesus is considered to be both fully human, but also fully divine, so he technically is considered to be God, or at least one of the three beings which are also one being. I know that there was at least a substantial minority that didn't buy into this view into this view in the early church, but they were gradually wiped out by at least the 7th to 8th century, and the only modern exceptions I can think of are the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. As far as a rational explanation of why this makes sense, I remember being taught that it is a "holy mystery", which basically means that there's no conceivable way for it to make sense.

The best way it was taught to me is this. Think of god, jesus, and the holy sprit like water. Water can be a solid(ice) a liquid, and a vapor. But it is all water. Same as the "holy trinity". Or my favorite (thank you Nuns on the Run). think of them like a three leaf clover. three leaves of the same clover.

So wait, if I pretended to believe all my life that would count?

Rosalind wrote:

But what makes you think I had the choice to begin with? You think I could snap my fingers and declare I had faith? Would God in his infinite wisdom not be capable of seeing that I was lying to myself?

I don't see it as a choice, rather a fact about myself, no more readily changed than my sexual orientation or the size of my huge wang. I've been quoted the Qu'ran by Muslims too drunk to walk without leaning on me, eaten bacon sandwiches with a Hindu friend and walked past the catholic school near where I grew up with one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the county. You think they really have faith? Or are just fooling themselves into believing as a result of their upbringing?

Don't get me wrong, there are those who truly do have unquestionable faith, but I don't. And I'm more content in acknowledging that fact than trying to fool myself otherwise.

This is probably exactly where I am too. I honestly don't have to much of a problem with religion, but actually find myself really annoyed by those who just casually identify as Christian or Muslim or what have you when they clearly don't care one way or another. This just means that they either aren't intelligent enough to at least question their beliefs at some point in their lives, or are stupid enough to truly believe in God and yet completely ignore what they believe he says. I know lots of people who are very faithful Christians, and I ultimately respect them a lot more because at least they practice what they preach.

Though I realize that the debate at this point seems to be between atheists and Muslims, neither of whom would necessarily care, the Christian God apparently agrees with my point:

"I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth"-Revlations 3:14
Basically saying God prefers either true believers or true atheists to those who claim to be Christian but don't really care about God's laws

AarO)))n wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

@ Aaron: Since my long reply got deleted while I was sending it, I cba tbqh to write another one, specialy as I know it would make no difference, but I just want to clear out a few points.

Quote :

Jesus never said he was a god or is omnipotent any where in the bible, infact, he suffered sometimes in life, starved at others, also didnt know the future. These all arent the charectristics of a god.

First question. Which bible? Because you think yours is right. Yet MANY others would disagree. He was the son of god. Born sinless. Which is why he was born of a virgin(though that is never said in the bible but universally agreed upon in christianity anyways). He did suffer and did starve yes. But this was to symbolize the suffering that he was taking in place of our own. After all he was dying for our sins. He did know the future. He said at the last supper that one among them had already sinned against him(see Judas) and that before the rooster crowed, Matthew would deny him three times, and both happened. So is he a sooth sayer or the son of god?

Universally agreed, eh ? If it were universally agreed you were god, wouldnt make you one. That's just plain wrong to say a human is a god. God had no son, there are many proofs that jesus is only human. I'am not familiar with that part of your religion of the last dinner, so I'll put that aside for a while. You still havent given any decent proof of him being god except for a bunch of people saying he is, doesnt make much sense now does it ?

Quote :

In my religion, doing right which leads you to heaven, is the also right by earthly standards - meaning two people cant disagree on it - for instance, adultery, drinking, murder, theft, disobeying parent and abusing them, and many other things we dont do shouldnt be right by anyone's "moral compass".

I agree completely. But I don't think we need religion to know these things. They are inherent in all of us from birth.

That's the thing, without a religion, how would you know what's right and what's wrong Aaron ? so you're telling me if you grew up in a murdering family, you would thing it's wrong ? hell no, you're not born knowing this is right and this is wrong, you're taught what is. And religion does the teaching in this part, as I've mentioned before, before religions, it was common in societes to kill people, then religions came and said it was wrong, hence the following generations knew what's right and what isnt.

Quote :

That respect point I mentioned wasnt towards me, but using words like "Adam and eve fuck" isnt exactly respect to someone's religous beliefs.

"Fuck" was used as euphemism for sex. Not as a slight against your beliefs. It is not as though they are saints. But if I unintentionally offended you, then I am sorry.

NP. =]

Quote :

One question to wrap things up, humor me for a second here, let's just say I'am right, dont you think an eternity of suffering due to disbelief in god, is worth a little more examining by you before seiling things up ?

What makes you think I have not done my homework as far as religions? I attended sunday school (Catholic) from about age 9 to 17. I also attended a Christian jr high and high school. The one thing I have learned about religions is this. You all think you are right. So how am I to choose? Humor me. How will you feel when you die and you get to the pearly gates only to find out that they don't accept people of Islamic faith? Or one step further. They don't accept brown people. Considering all religions seems to be so exclusive in who does and doesn't go to heaven, who knows what the REAL criterion may actually be. Even you can't be for sure. That is why it is called faith. Here is one more question. Do you really believe, or are you just hedging your bet and hoping you have hitched your wagon to the right horse? Shouldn't you believe because you actually believe the teachings? Not because you have hope that it is the right one to get you to heaven even though you don't believe in the teachings.

Yet, you dont belief in god right now ? now is that a fault of you or in your religion ? you said you were raised like a religious christian obviously, yet you dont belief in it, that's why I suggested checking out the Qu'ran, you're raised on the bible yet dont believe in it, at least give your other choices a chance. Me on the other hand -answering your last question - was raised as a muslim, and when I was mature enough to understand, afirmed my beliefs and believed in them even more not that I can know why I do what I do and refrain from other thing, because I have firm believe in god and his will and his prophets - including Jesus - and I do know if I keep doing so, it's the right thing to do. Religion isnt exclusive, you can be brown black or even green.

Sign of the Black Mark wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

But what makes you think I had the choice to begin with? You think I could snap my fingers and declare I had faith? Would God in his infinite wisdom not be capable of seeing that I was lying to myself?

I don't see it as a choice, rather a fact about myself, no more readily changed than my sexual orientation or the size of my huge wang. I've been quoted the Qu'ran by Muslims too drunk to walk without leaning on me, eaten bacon sandwiches with a Hindu friend and walked past the catholic school near where I grew up with one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the county. You think they really have faith? Or are just fooling themselves into believing as a result of their upbringing?

Don't get me wrong, there are those who truly do have unquestionable faith, but I don't. And I'm more content in acknowledging that fact than trying to fool myself otherwise.

This is probably exactly where I am too. I honestly don't have to much of a problem with religion, but actually find myself really annoyed by those who just casually identify as Christian or Muslim or what have you when they clearly don't care one way or another. This just means that they either aren't intelligent enough to at least question their beliefs at some point in their lives, or are stupid enough to truly believe in God and yet completely ignore what they believe he says. I know lots of people who are very faithful Christians, and I ultimately respect them a lot more because at least they practice what they preach.

Though I realize that the debate at this point seems to be between atheists and Muslims, neither of whom would necessarily care, the Christian God apparently agrees with my point:

"I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth"-Revlations 3:14
Basically saying God prefers either true believers or true atheists to those who claim to be Christian but don't really care about God's laws

Its generally an issue I avoid IRL, though I have more respect for those who do practice fully, and not simply when it suits them. If anything I envy them slightly for understanding something I cannot, but even those who take the title and little else rarely 'preach' to me as it were. I always found it a little ironic that my mother (Christian) is probably is a better practitioner of the morals it teaches than the group of die-hard's she used to be friends with. (You know the kind - the ones who are at church every day of the week, only listen to gospel music and refuse to associate with anyone but other Christians). I have no question of their faith, but rather the fact they have difficulty seeing the distaste towards any faith that isn't their own.

Rosalind wrote:

So wait, if I pretended to believe all my life that would count?

Not at all.

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

So wait, if I pretended to believe all my life that would count?

Not at all.

Then I have no choice. You think a man decides to be gay or straight? Perhaps schizophrenics choose to be so? And paedophiles choose to be aroused by young children?

My faith is no different. I have no choice in the matter.

Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

So wait, if I pretended to believe all my life that would count?

Not at all.

Then I have no choice. You think a man decides to be gay or straight? Perhaps schizophrenics choose to be so? And paedophiles choose to be aroused by young children?

My faith is no different. I have no choice in the matter.

Well I wouldn't neccessarily say that it is impossible to change, but I don't really think you can really just one day decide that you beleive in God. Most people I know who really are faithful tend to ascribe it to some sort of semi-mystical, "I just somehow knew that it was true" experience, so that's what I'm waiting for before I start going to church again. (especially since the church where I live got rid of their pipe organ. They did play some good music on that thing)

Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

So wait, if I pretended to believe all my life that would count?

Not at all.

Then I have no choice. You think a man decides to be gay or straight? Perhaps schizophrenics choose to be so? And paedophiles choose to be aroused by young children?

My faith is no different. I have no choice in the matter.

Ofcourse he does, so he's born of his mother's womb attracted to a man ?! like wtf man, it's due to imporper parenting and having no guidlines - religion - same goes for paedophiles ! by that principle, then neither are murderes, theives, rapists and every bad person in the world, all are excuses , they're born like this ! the only exception is the schizophrenics or mentaly ill, as they arent aware of what they do.

If you had no choice, then neither would I or anyone else.

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

So wait, if I pretended to believe all my life that would count?

Not at all.

Then I have no choice. You think a man decides to be gay or straight? Perhaps schizophrenics choose to be so? And paedophiles choose to be aroused by young children?

My faith is no different. I have no choice in the matter.

Ofcourse he does, so he's born of his mother's womb attracted to a man ?! like wtf man, it's due to imporper parenting and having no guidlines - religion - same goes for paedophiles ! by that principle, then neither are murderes, theives, rapists and every bad person in the world, all are excuses , they're born like this ! the only exception is the schizophrenics or mentaly ill, as they arent aware of what they do.

If you had no choice, then neither would I or anyone else.

I'm surprised at that one. Bad parenting leads to a child becoming gay? In all three cases its to do with their psychology, and not something they can control. Murder, theft and rape are all examples of actions, not psychological thought patterns. A paedophile has no choice by being aroused by children, he can only choose whether or not to act on that arousal.

And no, I don't believe you had a choice. Me pretending to believe in a higher power would be like you denying it; its part of our psychology - part of who we are. Your only real choice is which religion you believe makes the most sense.

AarO)))n wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

@ Aaron: Since my long reply got deleted while I was sending it, I cba tbqh to write another one, specialy as I know it would make no difference, but I just want to clear out a few points.

Quote :

Jesus never said he was a god or is omnipotent any where in the bible, infact, he suffered sometimes in life, starved at others, also didnt know the future. These all arent the charectristics of a god.

First question. Which bible? Because you think yours is right. Yet MANY others would disagree. He was the son of god. Born sinless. Which is why he was born of a virgin(though that is never said in the bible but universally agreed upon in christianity anyways). He did suffer and did starve yes. But this was to symbolize the suffering that he was taking in place of our own. After all he was dying for our sins. He did know the future. He said at the last supper that one among them had already sinned against him(see Judas) and that before the rooster crowed, Matthew would deny him three times, and both happened. So is he a sooth sayer or the son of god?

Quote :

You said something along the lines "every teaching I've heard of" well, I'am sure you havent enough knowledge on the Qu'ran, it has different facts from the one's you've stated. So, you should check it out in your spare time, sometime.

See this is where religion losses ground. You believe yours is right, and you should. But guess what, so do christians and their beliefs in their bible is as strong as yours. Telling their children the same thing you were taught. that they are right and the rest is wrong. The same goes for every religion. Believing you are right does not make it so.

Quote :

In my religion, doing right which leads you to heaven, is the also right by earthly standards - meaning two people cant disagree on it - for instance, adultery, drinking, murder, theft, disobeying parent and abusing them, and many other things we dont do shouldnt be right by anyone's "moral compass".

I agree completely. But I don't think we need religion to know these things. They are inherent in all of us from birth.

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That respect point I mentioned wasnt towards me, but using words like "Adam and eve fuck" isnt exactly respect to someone's religous beliefs.

"Fuck" was used as euphemism for sex. Not as a slight against your beliefs. It is not as though they are saints. But if I unintentionally offended you, then I am sorry.

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One question to wrap things up, humor me for a second here, let's just say I'am right, dont you think an eternity of suffering due to disbelief in god, is worth a little more examining by you before seiling things up ?

What makes you think I have not done my homework as far as religions? I attended sunday school (Catholic) from about age 9 to 17. I also attended a Christian jr high and high school. The one thing I have learned about religions is this. You all think you are right. So how am I to choose? Humor me. How will you feel when you die and you get to the pearly gates only to find out that they don't accept people of Islamic faith? Or one step further. They don't accept brown people. Considering all religions seems to be so exclusive in who does and doesn't go to heaven, who knows what the REAL criterion may actually be. Even you can't be for sure. That is why it is called faith. Here is one more question. Do you really believe, or are you just hedging your bet and hoping you have hitched your wagon to the right horse? Shouldn't you believe because you actually believe the teachings? Not because you have hope that it is the right one to get you to heaven even though you don't believe in the teachings.

Peter*

Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

So wait, if I pretended to believe all my life that would count?

Not at all.

Then I have no choice. You think a man decides to be gay or straight? Perhaps schizophrenics choose to be so? And paedophiles choose to be aroused by young children?

My faith is no different. I have no choice in the matter.

Ofcourse he does, so he's born of his mother's womb attracted to a man ?! like wtf man, it's due to imporper parenting and having no guidlines - religion - same goes for paedophiles ! by that principle, then neither are murderes, theives, rapists and every bad person in the world, all are excuses , they're born like this ! the only exception is the schizophrenics or mentaly ill, as they arent aware of what they do.

If you had no choice, then neither would I or anyone else.

I'm surprised at that one. Bad parenting leads to a child becoming gay? In all three cases its to do with their psychology, and not something they can control. Murder, theft and rape are all examples of actions, not psychological thought patterns. A paedophile has no choice by being aroused by children, he can only choose whether or not to act on that arousal.

And no, I don't believe you had a choice. Me pretending to believe in a higher power would be like you denying it; its part of our psychology - part of who we are. Your only real choice is which religion you believe makes the most sense.

Yes it does; when he's not raised on the right moral values and ethics, will lead to him shifting from natural order. I mean, dont try to convince me a man get's an erection from seeing another's dick for a first time, you choose to be what you are. I know you're a very educated person, but until you show me a valid scientific proof that a gay person, or a paedophile acts against his will - as if it were a disease ! I'll have to disagree on this one.

That's where you're wrong, I had the choice since pubirty, if this werent the right path and I was 100% convinced of that, I would've converted my religion to anything, even atheism if I saw that was right.

Mostafa wrote:

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Yet, you dont belief in god right now ? now is that a fault of you or in your religion ? you said you were raised like a religious christian obviously, yet you dont belief in it, that's why I suggested checking out the Qu'ran, you're raised on the bible yet dont believe in it, at least give your other choices a chance.

My not believing is my choice. But it is a choice brought on by learning about it. In these studies we learned about other religions, including yours. They explained why there was best and the others were worse. So what if the Qu'ran doesn't do it for me, then what? As I stated before. I have learned enough about religions. They all share the same thing. They are all convinced they are right and the rest is wrong.

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Me on the other hand -answering your last question - was raised as a muslim, and when I was mature enough to understand, afirmed my beliefs and believed in them even more not that I can know why I do what I do and refrain from other thing, because I have firm believe in god and his will and his prophets - including Jesus - and I do know if I keep doing so, it's the right thing to do. Religion isnt exclusive, you can be brown black or even green.

But did you really have a choice? You were raised that way and surrounded by it all your life. What else would you have chose? This is not to say you don't believe. I sure you do. But it is what you have been taught is right since you were born. Why would you suddenly change? How often does do people reject Islam where you are from? I think it is safe to say not many. Most religions are not exclusive as far as skin color. But they are exclusive organizations. Sure they will take almost anyone. But not with out following all the rules. I mean, could a homosexual be a Muslim and be accepted? No. How about a Jewish person? This is how religion is exclusive. Not everyone is invited.

Nautilus wrote:

Peter*

Great. Now my whole argument goes out the window. As soon as I posted it I was sure it was wrong.

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

So wait, if I pretended to believe all my life that would count?

Not at all.

Then I have no choice. You think a man decides to be gay or straight? Perhaps schizophrenics choose to be so? And paedophiles choose to be aroused by young children?

My faith is no different. I have no choice in the matter.

Ofcourse he does, so he's born of his mother's womb attracted to a man ?! like wtf man, it's due to imporper parenting and having no guidlines - religion - same goes for paedophiles ! by that principle, then neither are murderes, theives, rapists and every bad person in the world, all are excuses , they're born like this ! the only exception is the schizophrenics or mentaly ill, as they arent aware of what they do.

If you had no choice, then neither would I or anyone else.

I'm surprised at that one. Bad parenting leads to a child becoming gay? In all three cases its to do with their psychology, and not something they can control. Murder, theft and rape are all examples of actions, not psychological thought patterns. A paedophile has no choice by being aroused by children, he can only choose whether or not to act on that arousal.

And no, I don't believe you had a choice. Me pretending to believe in a higher power would be like you denying it; its part of our psychology - part of who we are. Your only real choice is which religion you believe makes the most sense.

Yes it does; when he's not raised on the right moral values and ethics, will lead to him shifting from natural order. I mean, dont try to convince me a man get's an erection from seeing another's dick for a first time, you choose to be what you are. I know you're a very educated person, but until you show me a valid scientific proof that a gay person, or a paedophile acts against his will - as if it were a disease ! I'll have to disagree on this one.

That's where you're wrong, I had the choice since pubirty, if this werent the right path and I was 100% convinced of that, I would've converted my religion to anything, even atheism if I saw that was right.

You've never had a random boner in class or at an inopportune time? I know I had. Could it be hormones? Puberty. Nope. Must have been bad parenting, eh?

Say that you find Megan Fox more attractive than Grace Park and I disagree, believing it to be the other way around. Is that because of bad parenting? And which of us is right?

And if truly is a choice, why would someone choose to be gay? Why would they choose to be discriminated against, attacked, bullied, criticised, condemned, rejected by their families, denied basic human rights and possibly subjected to violent hate crimes?

And what about homosexuality in animals? Link 1, Link 2, Link 3, Link 4, Link 5. All bad parenting again? What about the evidence of differing brain activity in homosexuals? (Link).

You claim to have had the choice, and you are 100% certain of your faith. Well i'm 100% certain against it. Me becoming Muslim would be the equivalent of you becoming Atheist - you'd be lying to yourself. So I ask again, did you really ever have a choice?

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Me on the other hand -answering your last question - was raised as a muslim, and when I was mature enough to understand, afirmed my beliefs and believed in them even more not that I can know why I do what I do and refrain from other thing, because I have firm believe in god and his will and his prophets - including Jesus - and I do know if I keep doing so, it's the right thing to do. Religion isnt exclusive, you can be brown black or even green.

But did you really have a choice? You were raised that way and surrounded by it all your life. What else would you have chose? This is not to say you don't believe. I sure you do. But it is what you have been taught is right since you were born. Why would you suddenly change? How often does do people reject Islam where you are from? I think it is safe to say not many. Most religions are not exclusive as far as skin color. But they are exclusive organizations. Sure they will take almost anyone. But not with out following all the rules. I mean, could a homosexual be a Muslim and be accepted? No. How about a Jewish person? This is how religion is exclusive. Not everyone is invited.[/quote]

Again, I did have the choice; if I didnt believe by heart in this religion and that it's the right path, I would have converted. You wondering if a homosexual muslim would be accepted is the same as wondering if a killer muslim will be accepted, a sin is a sin no matter what's your religion.