Nautilus wrote:

Why are you guys so hung up on free will anyway? It may or may not be real but there's no way we can tell and it doesn't matter. Whether that ham sandwich is predetermined or not makes no difference - it still happens, whether you had the choice or if you didn't. And there is absolutely NOTHING we can do about it.

Free will doesn't really matter, tbh.

I agree it doesn't matter. But if people are going to use it in the argument, they have to use it consistently not conveniently. Can't say all the evil is human choice, and that there is free will, then in other arguments say it is part of a plan.... Then it isn't free will and you are being contradictory.

Kamikaze wrote:

Quote :

Because as I have stated before. There are universal truths. Not killing is one of them. You do not have to be taught to know that is wrong. It is inherent in all of us. Though some choose not to follow it or are mentally incapable of knowing it.

What if you come a tribe of headhunters in the Amazon. Then you wouldn't see killing as wrong. It would be a way of life. The only reason you accept killing to be wrong is because your culture has drilled it into you. If the law never said killing is wrong do you think you would still think as you do?

On the topic of Free Will, I found this to be a good read.

http://www.beingjewish.com/soul/freewill.html

Just because they don't follow it does not mean it does not exist. Just like everyone is saying about god and like everyone was saying about alien life forms in the other thread. So why has culture accepted this as a law? Because we know it to be right. We are born with that sense. It would take more to teach you that killing was OK then it would to teach you why it is not. Just like racism. Racism is taught you are not born with it. To kill and feel OK about it has to be taught. Otherwise it is a mental condition let allows you to think it is OK.

As for the read. Tomorrow. It is getting late for this old man.

Silchias Ruin wrote:

Sign of the Black Mark wrote:

So yes, while allowing random and pointless suffering may not seem compatible with a "good" God, the suffering of eternal damnation would ultimately be much worse than anything that could possibly happen to someone in the span of their human life. However, whether anyone really deserves a punishment which is necessarily greater than whatever crimes they could have committed is another debatable point

{bold face added by Silchias Ruin}

This was a large part of my original argument, God is represented as a perfectly good god, that loves humans. If it is in your control you don't allow people you love to suffer needlessly. The common argument is that it isn't needless , but that it is part of God's plan. If it is part of a preordained plan then it isn't free will.

While I don't agree that a conception of an omniscient God necessarily implies that God plans or wants what is going to happen, I think the main argument against God is that in order to fulfill the concept of God, he has to be perfect. If God was truly perfect he would have no need to create the universe, or any desire for creatures made in his image to worship him. Whatever would have motivated these actions, whether vanity, urge for creative express, or simple boredom, a truly perfect being would ultimately not experience these states, and simply exist forever, without any needs or wants, or if it had them, with the ability to fulfill them in and of itself, and not through creating imperfection.

Gareth: You said about Spartans throwing babies off cliffs, no need to travel so far back in time. In some of the more sparsely populated provinces of China used to be fairly common to drown baby girls at birth to try and have a boy, thanks to the one child policy.


Ricard: You need faith in a higher purpose, I need faith in my free will. Without it, I see no reason to get out of bed in the morning; If nothing I will ever do is my own doing, everything that will happen to me will happen irrespective of my conscious thoughts then I truly am nothing. For my own sanity I need to believe in myself, and personally I find it difficult to fathom how someone else can live contently without having confidence in their own abilities.

Kamikaze wrote:

On the topic of Free Will, I found this to be a good read.

http://www.beingjewish.com/soul/freewill.html

The problem I have with what he saying is this. God can say all he likes that we are free to chose. But in the end he knows what we are going to do. I don't know the verse number. But it is written that god say he knew you before you were in your mothers womb. Therefore he is perfectly aware of my decision even before I make them. How is that free-will. Also this verse may be in the new testament. A set of books the people of the jewish faith do not believe are the word of god. So this verse I am talking about would mean nothing to him. It still doesn't take away from the fact that there really is no decision. It is clear that god says do it my or suffer for the rest of eternity. That is not really a choice. Also this concept he put's out about some times there is free will and sometimes there is not. WHAT? So when does god let us know when that is? The analogy he used was planting the seeds. If you do all that you know to be right is will help your chances of growth, but not guarantee. The rest is left to god. So is god luck? Sometime bad sometimes good? He says god can will you to get sick. Why would a loving god do that? What is the point? Is this just part of his little game that he seem to play because he is bored? If god is omnipotent then he can make it any way he chooses no matter what I choose. He has intervened in the past(see my post on that in here), so why not now? Going back to the garden of eden argument. God set this whole thing up. He allowed the snake into the garden and allowed it to temp them. WHY? What purpose does it serve other then to get the ball rolling on this little game that god wants to play? Was he just bored with being friends with Adam and Eve almost as equals? Did he just want to see how much they really loved him? If these are the truth, then is that a god you want to follow?

Interesting read though. Thank you.

Rosalind wrote:

Gareth: You said about Spartans throwing babies off cliffs, no need to travel so far back in time. In some of the more sparsely populated provinces of China used to be fairly common to drown baby girls at birth to try and have a boy, thanks to the one child policy.

Used to be? It's still going on all the time. Chinese peasants live in the present and can't afford to think ahead in terms of saving money. When they get old they require someone to look after them. Women aren't good at bringing in the dough so they want a boy. I wouldn't be surprised if a case of this happened today.

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Gareth: You said about Spartans throwing babies off cliffs, no need to travel so far back in time. In some of the more sparsely populated provinces of China used to be fairly common to drown baby girls at birth to try and have a boy, thanks to the one child policy.

Used to be? It's still going on all the time. Chinese peasants live in the present and can't afford to think ahead in terms of saving money. When they get old they require someone to look after them. Women aren't good at bringing in the dough so they want a boy. I wouldn't be surprised if a case of this happened today.

Laws have tightened a *lot* in this regard.

Rosalind wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Gareth: You said about Spartans throwing babies off cliffs, no need to travel so far back in time. In some of the more sparsely populated provinces of China used to be fairly common to drown baby girls at birth to try and have a boy, thanks to the one child policy.

Used to be? It's still going on all the time. Chinese peasants live in the present and can't afford to think ahead in terms of saving money. When they get old they require someone to look after them. Women aren't good at bringing in the dough so they want a boy. I wouldn't be surprised if a case of this happened today.

Laws have tightened a *lot* in this regard.

China's population is massive, enormous, it's difficult for us to even fathom the size of it. The authorities in China aren't as organised as most countries and can't keep up with the population. People living in rural areas can easily get away with it.

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Gareth: You said about Spartans throwing babies off cliffs, no need to travel so far back in time. In some of the more sparsely populated provinces of China used to be fairly common to drown baby girls at birth to try and have a boy, thanks to the one child policy.

Used to be? It's still going on all the time. Chinese peasants live in the present and can't afford to think ahead in terms of saving money. When they get old they require someone to look after them. Women aren't good at bringing in the dough so they want a boy. I wouldn't be surprised if a case of this happened today.

Laws have tightened a *lot* in this regard.

China's population is massive, enormous, it's difficult for us to even fathom the size of it. The authorities in China aren't as organised as most countries and can't keep up with the population. People living in rural areas can easily get away with it.

Perhaps, but would it be worth it? Im saying its difficult to be sure without first hand knowledge.

Rosalind wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Gareth: You said about Spartans throwing babies off cliffs, no need to travel so far back in time. In some of the more sparsely populated provinces of China used to be fairly common to drown baby girls at birth to try and have a boy, thanks to the one child policy.

Used to be? It's still going on all the time. Chinese peasants live in the present and can't afford to think ahead in terms of saving money. When they get old they require someone to look after them. Women aren't good at bringing in the dough so they want a boy. I wouldn't be surprised if a case of this happened today.

Laws have tightened a *lot* in this regard.

China's population is massive, enormous, it's difficult for us to even fathom the size of it. The authorities in China aren't as organised as most countries and can't keep up with the population. People living in rural areas can easily get away with it.

Perhaps, but would it be worth it? Im saying its difficult to be sure without first hand knowledge.

Would it be worth it? Not sure what you're saying here but i'll try and answer.

Of course it's worth it. Women in China are not like women in the UK and the US amongst various other countries. They're work prospects are dire, they're only mission is to marry a richer man. Old people can't look after themselves as soon as they stop working and if they have no one to work for them then they will die. The sad thing is that it is neccesary for them to survive. I've done population study in geography, sadly this stuff happens all the time. It doesn't actually require first hand knowledge. Authorities can't hope to track down everyone or even a small portion of the people doing it because it's such a large country and organisation is poor. In China the poor people (like in some other countries) will do anything just to survive. If they kill a newly born baby who cares? They just make a new one, survival is more important for them.

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Gareth: You said about Spartans throwing babies off cliffs, no need to travel so far back in time. In some of the more sparsely populated provinces of China used to be fairly common to drown baby girls at birth to try and have a boy, thanks to the one child policy.

Used to be? It's still going on all the time. Chinese peasants live in the present and can't afford to think ahead in terms of saving money. When they get old they require someone to look after them. Women aren't good at bringing in the dough so they want a boy. I wouldn't be surprised if a case of this happened today.

Laws have tightened a *lot* in this regard.

China's population is massive, enormous, it's difficult for us to even fathom the size of it. The authorities in China aren't as organised as most countries and can't keep up with the population. People living in rural areas can easily get away with it.

Perhaps, but would it be worth it? Im saying its difficult to be sure without first hand knowledge.

Would it be worth it? Not sure what you're saying here but i'll try and answer.

Of course it's worth it. Women in China are not like women in the UK and the US amongst various other countries. They're work prospects are dire, they're only mission is to marry a richer man. Old people can't look after themselves as soon as they stop working and if they have no one to work for them then they will die. The sad thing is that it is neccesary for them to survive. I've done population study in geography, sadly this stuff happens all the time. It doesn't actually require first hand knowledge. Authorities can't hope to track down everyone or even a small portion of the people doing it because it's such a large country and organisation is poor. In China the poor people (like in some other countries) will do anything just to survive. If they kill a newly born baby who cares? They just make a new one, survival is more important for them.

I mean would it be worth the risk of spending the rest of your able life in prison if you were caught.

EDIT: *Their
And those prospects could bring the entire family out of poverty.

AarO)))n wrote:

Mostafa wrote:

Quote :

According to my knowledge, the currently existing christian bible is hand written by 44 people over a very long time, so, so much for it being word of god. Your deeds are what lead you to heaven or hell. No he doesnt, because A) he shoudl've chosen god not jesus B) You cant redeem a life's time actions in the final hours before you die, but if he did try to redeem before he got caught, who knows, he might've been forgiven.

Well now you are showing the problem with religion. It is different for different for different people. So I am to believe that the bible you follow is written by god right? But not the christian bible. I wonder what the christians in the forum would have to say about that? He chose jesus be cause he believed him to be god's son and it would get him into heaven. Just as you believe he is not god's son and will not get you into heaven. So as long as I do it before it is almost too late. I can lead what ever type of life I want to lead? That doesn't seem right. But as you have shown. Religion can be interpreted in many ways.

Quote :

How then do you what you're doing is the right thing? maybe it's the wrong thing from another point of view. I do right because it's right and I shall get rewarded - if god wills - for it by an eternity of happiness.

Because as I have stated before. There are universal truths. Not killing is one of them. You do not have to be taught to know that is wrong. It is inherent in all of us. Though some choose not to follow it or are mentally incapable of knowing it. I do what is right because it is right. My reward is here on earth making it a better place. To do it for some hopeful reward seems a tad selfish to me.

Quote :

If you were in his shoes and got the same parenting - if it existed - and had the same mentality, then you probably would.

Well of course if I were like him the chances would increase. But I am not like him. Therefore I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would not do it. That does not make me condescending. It makes me self assured in my own moral compass.

Quote :

I myself wouldnt've done the same because I know the consequences; but Adam and Eve didnt know them, the apple was just forbidden by it and they ate it in a moment of weakness, happens to every human being on this earth, and I dont suppose you're an alien , and also comparing murder to eating an apple ?! they though it was just a harmless apple.

They did know the consequences. God told them to not eat from the tree of life or face banishment from the garden, at least in bible I was taught from.

Quote :

That free will of yours is satan's seduction - avoiding your sarcasm, no you cant hear him seduce you.

So now free- will is a manifestation of satan? I thought god gave it to us as a gift. But seeing as god created the devil I think I see what you are saying.

Quote :

He forgave them by promising them heaven after a life time on earth. Life is hard, that's why you gotta work your ass off in this life, to win the after one, you sound as if you want an easy life with no pain or effort. We didnt get punished ! you choose right, you'll get rewarded not punished.

Life is hard and you do have to work at it. But when I offered that up as the purpose of life you dismissed it. So which is it? We did get punished. I didn't eat from the tree. Did you? Yet because of two people whom I have never met, I am now forced to live a certain life style in order to get to heaven. Where if they had left it alone and god did not allow the devil to temp them, none of this would be necessary. A life style by the way that seems to be different depending on which "right" god you are worshiping.

Quote :

They didnt go against god, you dont have your facts straight. They were kicked out of heaven for what they did - then god forgave them . You can call it what you want, if god wanted another way for man to exist on earth he would've done it, he chose this one and Adam came to earth to populate it with his breed. You're asking a question with no possible response, it's like asking me why do I pray 5 times a day. Why are you named Aaron ? your parents chose it.

I think it is you who has the "facts" misconstrued. Every teaching I have ever heard has the garden of eden on earth(some have speculated that it was some where in the middle east). Did god not create the heaven and the earth. Then plants and animals. Then finally man in his own image and rested on the seventh day. This is right is it not? If so how were they kicked out of heaven? He gave them the garden of eden with one stipulation. DON"T EAT FROM THE TREE OF LIFE! Once they did they were banished from the garden and brought sin upon the world. Sin the every generation since has been paying for. That seems fair. With that logic. If I kill my wife tonight, you won't mind going to jail for me will you? God wanted it that way because it fit his plan. The same reason he created the devil. Every good guy needs a bad guy. With out it what do you have to fear? You pray 5 times a day because your religion demands it does it not? Or do you have the free-will to stop and still follow your beliefs?

Quote :

First of all, you should show some respect, even if it goes against your beliefs, common curtesy seriously..God chose this way for whatever reasons of his. And he doesnt need to force us to love him, the smart ones already do.

I am not trying to be disrespectful. Nor do I see where I have. The smart ones already do? Some would say the smart ones don't follow Islam or the way you choose to follow god. Are they right? He does force us to love him. As I have said before. He does so by saying, "Follow my way or die for all eternity." That is not much of a choice. It is the same as putting a gun to your head and telling you, "Do as I say or die." Have I really given you a choice at all? This is of course with out talking about the fact that god already knows how I am going to choose so I never really had a choice to begin with.

Fuck, fuck , fuck , fuck this, I've been writing a reply for the past fucking hour !!!! and when I sent it, it said server is busy !!!!!!! my god this is annoying as fuck !

Rosalind wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Gareth: You said about Spartans throwing babies off cliffs, no need to travel so far back in time. In some of the more sparsely populated provinces of China used to be fairly common to drown baby girls at birth to try and have a boy, thanks to the one child policy.

Used to be? It's still going on all the time. Chinese peasants live in the present and can't afford to think ahead in terms of saving money. When they get old they require someone to look after them. Women aren't good at bringing in the dough so they want a boy. I wouldn't be surprised if a case of this happened today.

Laws have tightened a *lot* in this regard.

China's population is massive, enormous, it's difficult for us to even fathom the size of it. The authorities in China aren't as organised as most countries and can't keep up with the population. People living in rural areas can easily get away with it.

Perhaps, but would it be worth it? Im saying its difficult to be sure without first hand knowledge.

Would it be worth it? Not sure what you're saying here but i'll try and answer.

Of course it's worth it. Women in China are not like women in the UK and the US amongst various other countries. They're work prospects are dire, they're only mission is to marry a richer man. Old people can't look after themselves as soon as they stop working and if they have no one to work for them then they will die. The sad thing is that it is neccesary for them to survive. I've done population study in geography, sadly this stuff happens all the time. It doesn't actually require first hand knowledge. Authorities can't hope to track down everyone or even a small portion of the people doing it because it's such a large country and organisation is poor. In China the poor people (like in some other countries) will do anything just to survive. If they kill a newly born baby who cares? They just make a new one, survival is more important for them.

I mean would it be worth the risk of spending the rest of your able life in prison if you were caught.

EDIT: *Their
And those prospects could bring the entire family out of poverty.

That's the thing though, there is very little chance of getting caught and the importance of having a boy is incredible.

What prospects? Please be more clear in your posts..

If you're talking about females marrying rich men then think again, not only is China mostly very poor so the chances of that is 1 in a million but the woman does not bring the family with her. Once she's married off she no longer belongs to them.

Even in rural towns they don't live in isolation. Their population is huge (1.3 billion), easily enough that people can easily discover what they're doing. Its a give away of one minute someone's pregnant then no child emerges. What's to stop them ratting them out to the cops for a reward?

As for a woman getting married, the man pays for the wedding, and if wealthy enough could probably be milked by the family. The woman gets very little say in the proceedings. Also, lets not forget human decency - the woman may well have a far better life than a male.

But lets take it from a Human Geography perspective. There is currently 51.5% male and 48.5% female living in china (2007) 75% of this discrepancy could be due to Hep B, which has a larger effect on women (Link). That leaves a fluctuation of 0.375% of the population, or ~250,000 more males than females. This is an observed trend that is declining in China, and remains in places such as S.Korea and Taiwan, despite there being no one-child policy (Link).

Evidently, the situation is less prevalent than it once was.

Since the demographic link wouldn't linkify >.<

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China #Sex_distribution

Rosalind wrote:

Even in rural towns they don't live in isolation. Their population is huge (1.3 billion), easily enough that people can easily discover what they're doing. Its a give away of one minute someone's pregnant then no child emerges. What's to stop them ratting them out to the cops for a reward?

As for a woman getting married, the man pays for the wedding, and if wealthy enough could probably be milked by the family. The woman gets very little say in the proceedings. Also, lets not forget human decency - the woman may well have a far better life than a male.

But lets take it from a Human Geography perspective. There is currently 51.5% male and 48.5% female living in china (2007) 75% of this discrepancy could be due to Hep B, which has a larger effect on women (Link). That leaves a fluctuation of 0.375% of the population, or ~250,000 more males than females. This is an observed trend that is declining in China, and remains in places such as S.Korea and Taiwan, despite there being no one-child policy (Link).

Evidently, the situation is less prevalent than it once was.

Since the demographic link wouldn't linkify >.<

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China #Sex_distribution

That's not exactly a trustworthy source frankly, in fact I doubt anything that comes from the Chinese government's mouths is trustworthy.

The population is huge, in rural areas a lot of people do it and there's no police to stop them. The thing is that figures show people are doing it. Besides Bawden, even if they are caught they've still done it so there's no going back. Poor Chinese farmers don't assess risk as they don't actually have that much to lose and the risk is very small. You also don't understand how poor these people are. Women don't just marry rich men. If a wealthy family has a daughter then maybe she'll marry into a rich family in which case the parents wouldn't have needed the other family anyway. The people are poor as fuck, they don't get any money at all out of the men for the family.

The police don't give rewards for that, it's too common.

As interesting as this debate is, I'm sure Thomas was just using it as an example, dude.

Nautilus wrote:

As interesting as this debate is, I'm sure Thomas was just using it as an example, dude.

I know but it's a better debate then.

person1: God doesn't exist, look teh evidencez.

person2: God exists, look teh free willz.

To quote my Principles of Reasoning teacher from last semester: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Even in rural towns they don't live in isolation. Their population is huge (1.3 billion), easily enough that people can easily discover what they're doing. Its a give away of one minute someone's pregnant then no child emerges. What's to stop them ratting them out to the cops for a reward?

As for a woman getting married, the man pays for the wedding, and if wealthy enough could probably be milked by the family. The woman gets very little say in the proceedings. Also, lets not forget human decency - the woman may well have a far better life than a male.

But lets take it from a Human Geography perspective. There is currently 51.5% male and 48.5% female living in china (2007) 75% of this discrepancy could be due to Hep B, which has a larger effect on women (Link). That leaves a fluctuation of 0.375% of the population, or ~250,000 more males than females. This is an observed trend that is declining in China, and remains in places such as S.Korea and Taiwan, despite there being no one-child policy (Link).

Evidently, the situation is less prevalent than it once was.

Since the demographic link wouldn't linkify >.<

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China #Sex_distribution

That's not exactly a trustworthy source frankly, in fact I doubt anything that comes from the Chinese government's mouths is trustworthy.

The population is huge, in rural areas a lot of people do it and there's no police to stop them. The thing is that figures show people are doing it. Besides Bawden, even if they are caught they've still done it so there's no going back. Poor Chinese farmers don't assess risk as they don't actually have that much to lose and the risk is very small. You also don't understand how poor these people are. Women don't just marry rich men. If a wealthy family has a daughter then maybe she'll marry into a rich family in which case the parents wouldn't have needed the other family anyway. The people are poor as fuck, they don't get any money at all out of the men for the family.

The police don't give rewards for that, it's too common.

Which isn't trustworthy? The national demographic? Or the two independant studies conducted outside of China?

Show me your figures. I've shown you mine stating its got nothing to do with the one-child policy any more, not limited to China, and is not only levelling out in China but actually worse in neighbouring countries.

You're also overestimating how poor the farmers in rural china are. Proof. Maybe 20 years ago, sure. Now that China is by far the worlds biggest consumer of tobacco? People pay a lot more for smokes than for rice.

I can split the topic if needed. Thoughts? (I don't want another bitchfest if I do).

Rosalind wrote:

You're also overestimating how poor the farmers in rural china are. Proof. Maybe 20 years ago, sure. Now that China is by far the worlds biggest consumer of tobacco? People pay a lot more for smokes than for rice.

Quote :

...home to about 350 million smokers.

Holy shit, that's more than the entire population of the US.

Ziegenbartami wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

You're also overestimating how poor the farmers in rural china are. Proof. Maybe 20 years ago, sure. Now that China is by far the worlds biggest consumer of tobacco? People pay a lot more for smokes than for rice.

Quote :

...home to about 350 million smokers.

Holy shit, that's more than the entire population of the US.

One in every three cigarettes is smoked in China, home to 1/5th the worlds population. It's customary to have an ashtray in your living room - even if nobody in the house smokes - and it's considered the height of manners to offer everyone a cigarette between courses at a restaurant, to the extent that at business meetings and the like there is something of a race to get out your pack first.

Rosalind wrote:

I can split the topic if needed. Thoughts? (I don't want another bitchfest if I do).

Go for it.

As for earlier..

I don't have any facts I don't want to look any up (and that sounds pretty weak for my argument) but as an observer, yes, parents are killing girls that pop out. It's getting less and less certainly and poverty is decreasing but poverty in rural areas is still great enough for retired people to have no money once retired and then they require a son.

My point about the sources you provided was that they might actually be wrong as surprising as that sounds. Nowadays people assume the world is perfect and none of this propaganda shit happens anymore but I doubt it. Stalin wasn't that long ago. You have to question how reliable that actually is. Does it matter if they're independant? Andrew Rothstein (a major british historian during the 40's and 50's wrote a book which claimed that Zinoviev and Kamanev were nazi spies sent out to kill Stalin and overthrow the communist party. That's clearly not true and it wasn't that long ago. I'd be surprised if some figures weren't tweaked slightly.

And wikipedia isn't exactly a great source

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

I can split the topic if needed. Thoughts? (I don't want another bitchfest if I do).

Go for it.

As for earlier..

I don't have any facts I don't want to look any up (and that sounds pretty weak for my argument) but as an observer, yes, parents are killing girls that pop out. It's getting less and less certainly and poverty is decreasing but poverty in rural areas is still great enough for retired people to have no money once retired and then they require a son.

My point about the sources you provided was that they might actually be wrong as surprising as that sounds. Nowadays people assume the world is perfect and none of this propaganda shit happens anymore but I doubt it. Stalin wasn't that long ago. You have to question how reliable that actually is. Does it matter if they're independant? Andrew Rothstein (a major british historian during the 40's and 50's wrote a book which claimed that Zinoviev and Kamanev were nazi spies sent out to kill Stalin and overthrow the communist party. That's clearly not true and it wasn't that long ago. I'd be surprised if some figures weren't tweaked slightly.

And wikipedia isn't exactly a great source

Well the two independent studies (now three if you include the last one) are more reliable, and I don't have time to read through all the wiki sources. The fact they have reliable looking sources though leans me more inclined to believe it than you're lack of sources.

What I don't get is why you think impartial researchers care to spread propaganda?

@ Aaron: Since my long reply got deleted while I was sending it, I cba tbqh to write another one, specialy as I know it would make no difference, but I just want to clear out a few points.

Jesus never said he was a god or is omnipotent any where in the bible, infact, he suffered sometimes in life, starved at others, also didnt know the future. These all arent the charectristics of a god.

You said something along the lines "every teaching I've heard of" well, I'am sure you havent enough knowledge on the Qu'ran, it has different facts from the one's you've stated. So, you should check it out in your spare time, sometime.

In my religion, doing right which leads you to heaven, is the also right by earthly standards - meaning two people cant disagree on it - for instance, adultery, drinking, murder, theft, disobeying parent and abusing them, and many other things we dont do shouldnt be right by anyone's "moral compass".

That respect point I mentioned wasnt towards me, but using words like "Adam and eve fuck" isnt exactly respect to someone's religous beliefs.

One question to wrap things up, humor me for a second here, let's just say I'am right, dont you think an eternity of suffering due to disbelief in god, is worth a little more examining by you before seiling things up ?