Quote :

I am not bashing. I am telling the truth. If it hurts so be it.

It figures the kid with the spinning badger penis has to take everything so seriously.

Bright_Eyed wrote:

Quote :

I am not bashing. I am telling the truth. If it hurts so be it.

It figures the kid with the spinning badger penis has to take everything so seriously.

Kid? I think we have crossed this bridge before. It was not a matter of taking it seriously. Just defending my point. This is the Debater Den.

The Big Bang Theory wouldn't disprove God, and the Quran doesn't say to kill others.

Nautilus wrote:

The Big Bang Theory wouldn't disprove God, and the Quran doesn't say to kill others.

No, Big Bang Theory still wouldn't disprove his existence, my argument was refuting the claim that Creationism based on Gods teachings refutes the Big Bang.

No religious doctrine says to kill others, and yet holy wars are common place. In the eye of the public, a religion is represented by its followers. Not by their incapacity to follow their own religion.

AarO)))n wrote:

Christoff Odendaal wrote:

You know I have to make a statement here

Quote :

Thomas: I`m sick as hell of your Occam`s Razor. That has become such a cliché that it doesn`t mean anything anymore. Occam`s Razor has no effect onreligion since religion has a very real and important purpose in modern society: keeping order. See, as much as religion drives people to bad deeds it also gives a reason for NOT commiting crime and obeying the law. It motivates empirical law as there are consequences which we cannot escape, not even if no-one sees us. Therefore your argument loses.

So do you actually believe that with out an invisible man in the sky that we would all be offing each other left and right? Come on. Doesn't seem to work for radical Muslims does it? In fact they made sure to write in their book that it was not only OK, but doing it will get you pussy in the after life. But you are right it is meant to keep people in order, as in control. Not a moral control, but as a means to rule. Nothing more. If you need a great story and an invisible man to do the right thing in life then you need help. I don't kill because it is wrong, I will face jail time for it, and possibly death. The guilt I will feel is the consequence I will feel that no one will see. All this with out god. If I was not to feel guilt then my problems go far beyond religious ones. Despite what you and other christians believe, man is not all together evil and in need of saving.

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Religion also gives another very real input to modern civilization: hope. Without the solice of knowing that something greater than yourself is in control and knowing that all has a purpose, many simply won`t have the motivation to get out of bed in the morning. Even your no nonsense secular approach to religion cannot escape the inevitible advantages it yields.

Hope to who? To the ones that believe what you believe right? I will assume you are not a Muslim or a Jew (if I am wrong I apologize in advance). So you have hope because you believe you are right and will go to heaven. What about those who don't believe what you believe. They will burn in hell right? Not much hope there. Unless of course if they are right and you are wrong. Then it is you that will lose hope. Of course by then it will be too late. I hope there is a god for nothing more than the fact that I don't want to die. I do not wish for my existence to cease. This is why man has constructed a god, and a religion to go with it. We as humans are scared of our own mortality and find it hard to wrap our brains around the fact of non-existence. So religion and a belief in an after life gives them a sense of peace and a feeling of happiness. Of course the other side of this is it also creates a lot of people with a "can't wait to die mentality". They don't bother with environmental issues because "god" will take care of it. It also breeds a nation of christian that say they love Israel and think they should have it's own country including what the Palestinian's have. But the dirty little secret is that they do not feel this way because it is right. No, they think this way because if the Jew's get that land back and build the temple, their "lord" comes back and takes them to heaven. While every person of Jewish faith burns in hell for all eternity. See the advantages that believing the right "god" can have.

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Additionally if I ponder the universe, the very nature of existance, I always get back to the same unanswerable question: the universe exists - that we know. If there were no cause, there would be no consequence. Therefore: if there were no God, there would be no universe. Why do we exist, then?

Why of there was no god would there be no universe? Could the big bang theory not be right? That would explain our universe and disprove you god. Remember this. What you have is faith, not fact. As your fellow christians in this thread have already said. The book upon which your entire faith is based on, is full of mistakes. More proof that it is not fact. God is nothing more than a man made construct done so to keep men in control and to help find solace in our own mortality.

Awww... That`s lovely story. We should all live moraly because if we didn`t we`d feel bad! If only I had been so insightful to see this truth! I`m happy you can live life moraly and decently without a god to scare it into you. If the whole world were like you, we`d all be better off. Here`s the problem, though: the world is composed 90% of oafs who cannot wrap their minds around doing something for it`s own sake. You know, those who think history is bullshit because it doesn`t help you make money. Without the fear of punishment for sin and the promise of reward for good deeds, there is no reason to for them to obey any empirical laws whatsoever. I admire and respect your way of life, but it won`t work for most.

As for hope: I`ll take doctors as an example. Most doctors my family goes to are dedicated Christians. They see death and suffering every day. What drives them to do what they do? The knowledge that it all happens in some greater scheme of things. Naive? Perhaps. But it gives them what they need to carry on with their work and that helps the community in the end.

As for my religion: I don`t know what it is anymore but I will continue defending the principle of religion for the rest of my life. I would appreciate it if you stopped making assumptions about my religion. My religion is based on no single piece of literiture but on my own (very limited) knowledge of the world and what I can deduce from that. I am the firmest believer in the Big Bang there is. Probably a more avid believer than yourself. Here`s the question: Where did it come from? If everything thing in the universe is a consequence of a cause, why should the universe as a whole be any different?

As for finding solice in your own morality: is that necessarily a bad thing. Is the hope that you won`t amount to nothing a BAD concept? I can`t see how. Certainly there are difficulties with religion. We just have to work to resolve them. What more can we do? People WILL continue fighting - be there religion, or not.

Actually, there are a large number of Atheists who live happy crime-free lives. Call me naive, but I actually believe in human decency, helping others because I can and not for some reward.

You need faith to want to end death and suffering? Wow. What a selfish argument. Forgive me for caring about others.

You decide..

It's most likely so because Western society is extremely Christianized anyway, so those values/morals have been impressed into our society anyway.

I was referring to Aaron's post btw, I didn't see that there was a 4th page.

Monkzum wrote:

You decide..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Christian_missionaries_in_Africa

Nautilus wrote:

It's most likely so because Western society is extremely Christianized anyway, so those values/morals have been impressed into our society anyway.

I was referring to Aaron's post btw, I didn't see that there was a 4th page.

Quite possibly, but I'm sure thats distortions on the truth. Even cavemen would have felt remorse at killing their parents. The 'smaller' things, more customs than morals probably stemmed from religion.

Ricard:

How does that prove anything?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_crusades

son_ov_hades wrote:

The simple answer is I don't know and neither do any of you. It's downright impossible to prove, therefore no one knows.

This.

Also, I knew Aaron wouldn't be able to keep away

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

It's most likely so because Western society is extremely Christianized anyway, so those values/morals have been impressed into our society anyway.

I was referring to Aaron's post btw, I didn't see that there was a 4th page.

Quite possibly, but I'm sure thats distortions on the truth. Even cavemen would have felt remorse at killing their parents. The 'smaller' things, more customs than morals probably stemmed from religion.

True enough. I'm reading a book in Philosophy called Whatever Happened to Good and Evil, it's about how there are certain issues, morally, that are DEFINITIVELY moral/immoral. There are objective morals, like killing in your example. It's a really boring book but it's got some great ideas, you should check it out.

Monkey boy: How does yours prove anything? Yes, there are horrible things in the world. But there are also good things and good people working as best they can, giving their lives to help and save others.

Rosalind wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_crusades

The crusades were for power and conquest and land and were 500+ years ago. How many people would go to Africa or South America, or the Phillipines, often in very dangerous conditions and in danger of death, and willingly embrace poverty and extremely hard work, for a selfish personal gain?

Nautilus wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

It's most likely so because Western society is extremely Christianized anyway, so those values/morals have been impressed into our society anyway.

I was referring to Aaron's post btw, I didn't see that there was a 4th page.

Quite possibly, but I'm sure thats distortions on the truth. Even cavemen would have felt remorse at killing their parents. The 'smaller' things, more customs than morals probably stemmed from religion.

True enough. I'm reading a book in Philosophy called Whatever Happened to Good and Evil, it's about how there are certain issues, morally, that are DEFINITIVELY moral/immoral. There are objective morals, like killing in your example. It's a really boring book but it's got some great ideas, you should check it out.

Monkey boy: How does yours prove anything? Yes, there are horrible things in the world. But there are also good things and good people working as best they can, giving their lives to help and save others.

The fact that the world is the biggest pile of piss in the world? We're lucky as hell to be living good lives, the world is a shitwhole and there's suffering on every corner. the idea of god suggests that everything should be perfect, it's far from it. Either god doesn't exist or he's a cunt.

People can do good things without being religious, that doesn't prove a god. I help people if they're stuck with homework at school, why should I? I don't believe in heaven anyway so theoretically I should be a selfish shit but i'm not.

If there really was a perfect god, as is claimed, then the world would not be so imbalanced. There are so many religious cop outs. Oh we can't test god's power. Bullshit, that's really rather convenient isn't it? Religion is the biggest fueler of hate and destruction throughout the world, it's a political tool.

Rosalind wrote:

Because people use as an effective example: the simplest answer is usually correct. You catch a child with his hand in a jar of sweets in a shop when the shopkeeper isn't looking. Its perfectly possible that some bullies stole his watch, throw it too far and had it bounce from the back of the shop down into the jar, and the boy ran in to try and get it back without wanting the shopkeeper to know of his suffering at the hands of the bullies. Its also possible he's trying to steal some sweets. The latter option is far more likely.

Example not applicable. The simplest answer is most likely the one to take the least thought. I`d avise the shopkeeper to install a few cameras and let us do our argumenting. Your application of Occam`s Razor is incorrect, since you leave out some important considerations i.e. GOD HAS NO PROOF AND THEREFORE DOESN`T EXIST neglects the possibility of religion having a positive impact on society. That`s my argument. I`m not saying God is real (well, I`m not DEBATING that), I`m saying god is important. Real or not.

Rosalind wrote:

Order created through numerous wars? More wars have been fought in the name of religion than any other by a long way. As a method of population control? Well if you inherently have no morals and no regard for the law, then perhaps you need this doctrine to keep you in check. Ironically, that was likely the reason for the Norwegian church burnings; as a method of brainwashing the masses, surely freeing them could only be a good thing?

Watch as I apply Occams Razor: War was carried out in the name of religion, the numerous 'God' references in the run up to the war in Iraq, the whole of the crusades blessed by the Vatican. The most likely truth was that it wasn't in the name of religion, it was being utilised as an effective reason to brainwash a populace into doing as the few in power wanted. So you're argument rests on the fact that those without remorse for despicable actions need faith to prevent them from becoming monstrosities. Well, good job the Yorkshire Ripper was religious eh?

What proof do you have that more wars were fought for religion than anything else? I`m willing to wager... something big that more wars were fought for empire expansion and money than there were ever wars fought for religion. Wars for religion just get more publicity because they "prove'' that fallacy of religion. Sure, religion was involved in many wars, but I think you`ll find most of those wars were waged for economic and/or impirial reasons in the first place. It just happened to be a happy coincidence that the enemy were "heathens". Religion has become to many secularists as metal has become to fundie Christians: the scapegoat for everything that goes wrong. "Perhaps" the selfish nature of most of humanity played a role in some of those instances? I restate: People WILL fight. People WILL commit atrocious deeds. Religion might prevent some of these deeds. It might also encourage others, but it`s not a 'black and white' situation.

Rosalind wrote:

Hope? You gain hope from the know knowledge that everything you have done and will do was already pre-ordained? You gain solace from the complete absence of free will, the knowledge that your entire life is completely meaningless except as a rat in a maze? I gain hope from the knowledge that my life is of my own choosing, that I am able to do as I wish. The knowledge that I can get up and have my own free will is what gets me up in the morning; not the ultimate futility of all life. I do not fear my own mortality, nor do I wish to live forever. This fact I accepted long ago, and so I should make the most of my time alive and not live in fear of all the things I want to do now, forestalling in some unwavering belief in the afterlife.

Yes. You are brilliant and my logic is ridiculous. How can belief in a "bigger plan" ever improve my moral? How silly of me. My belief in a greater purpose clearly prevents me from living my life to the fullest.

/bad sarcasm

Rosalind wrote:

Then what caused God? If there was no cause for his existence then there can be no consequence, and we're back to square one. All you've done is theorised one observable consequence of a theoretical prediction with an unobservable consequence with no possible knowable cause.

"But God is unfathomable and outside our scope of time" you cry.

You can actually picture the big bang in your head? And the current theory actually includes 'The Big Crunch," which too is infinite in time. Not outside our scope of time - if he doesn't exist in our reality then I'd argue he doesn't really exist but that's besides the point - and if he will live for all time then he already knows all that will happen, thus rendering our lives futile once more. Religion is seeking an answer to a question we cannot know. What is the meaning of life? I don't know. I don't even know if we have a meaning other than what meaning we make for ourselves. My life is of my own choosing.

Good for you, then. religious people replace what they cannot know with what gives them hope and power to get up in the morning. You replace it with your own ephemeral nature and lack of importance. I`m sorry I can argue back that "we wouldn`t exist if had no purpose". That must be my own foolishness. We are redundant and meaningless, yet we exist. How couldn`t I see the sense in that?

/more bad sarcasm

Rosalind wrote:

EDIT: Proof? There is proof for neither. There is evidence for the big bang theory in the form of the hubbles observation of the expanding universe in the form of red-shift, the cosmic background radiation detected and the observable ratio's of the elements (there is a LOT more hydrogen in the universe than there are heavier elements). This is evidence to support the theory. What evidence is there for god that cannot be explained scientifically?

No evidence. Just a bunch of stupid fundies who can`t make peace with the fact that we began out of nothing and will amount to nothing. That must be all.

Oh, yeah. You`ll see me mixing up the words "evidence" and "proof" a lot. In Afrikaans there is only one word for both, so you should understand my confusion sometimes. And also, don`t take my sarcasm as being attacking. Sure I`m attacking you, but not in a rude way. I`m just trying to prove a point

Monkzum wrote:

You decide..

That`s cute... I wonder how much they would be willing to pay for a loaf of bread...

Monkzum wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Nautilus wrote:

It's most likely so because Western society is extremely Christianized anyway, so those values/morals have been impressed into our society anyway.

I was referring to Aaron's post btw, I didn't see that there was a 4th page.

Quite possibly, but I'm sure thats distortions on the truth. Even cavemen would have felt remorse at killing their parents. The 'smaller' things, more customs than morals probably stemmed from religion.

True enough. I'm reading a book in Philosophy called Whatever Happened to Good and Evil, it's about how there are certain issues, morally, that are DEFINITIVELY moral/immoral. There are objective morals, like killing in your example. It's a really boring book but it's got some great ideas, you should check it out.

Monkey boy: How does yours prove anything? Yes, there are horrible things in the world. But there are also good things and good people working as best they can, giving their lives to help and save others.

The fact that the world is the biggest pile of piss in the world? We're lucky as hell to be living good lives, the world is a shitwhole and there's suffering on every corner. the idea of god suggests that everything should be perfect, it's far from it. Either god doesn't exist or he's a cunt.

People can do good things without being religious, that doesn't prove a god. I help people if they're stuck with homework at school, why should I? I don't believe in heaven anyway so theoretically I should be a selfish shit but i'm not.

If there really was a perfect god, as is claimed, then the world would not be so imbalanced. There are so many religious cop outs. Oh we can't test god's power. Bullshit, that's really rather convenient isn't it? Religion is the biggest fueler of hate and destruction throughout the world, it's a political tool.

I've argued this before - how does the idea of God suggest that everything should be perfect?

Christoff:

There doesn't need to be a meaning for our existence. Why do I have an appendix? Is it for god to get some lulz out of it when it needs to be taken out? Evolution is a pretty simple idea. Something happens randomly and then it carries on that way, taking the good stuff and dumping the bad stuff.

Ricard:

Then god is a useless prick. He created the heavens and the earth right? So why can't he feed a billion starving people? It should be a piece of cake.

Christoff (again): You use sarcasm every time someone provides an argument that you can't counter, it's a pretty poor way of showing that you have no come back.

NO!!

Aaron'll jump on me for it, but we don't understand God. We don't know why.

Christoff Odendaal wrote:

Quote :

Awww... That`s lovely story. We should all live moraly because if we didn`t we`d feel bad! If only I had been so insightful to see this truth! I`m happy you can live life moraly and decently without a god to scare it into you. If the whole world were like you, we`d all be better off. Here`s the problem, though: the world is composed 90% of oafs who cannot wrap their minds around doing something for it`s own sake. You know, those who think history is bullshit because it doesn`t help you make money. Without the fear of punishment for sin and the promise of reward for good deeds, there is no reason to for them to obey any empirical laws whatsoever. I admire and respect your way of life, but it won`t work for most.

So you are saying because the world is made up of "oafs" this is why we invented god and religion. Ok, I will go with that. But that doesn't change anything. I don't believe that at all. I think there are universal truths. One of which is that killing people is wrong. You don't need a god or a "holy book" to figure that out. The fear of punishment comes from our laws and government. Not god. While there are some that don't care many more do. What a shitty way to go through life. Thinking that the majority of your fellow man is stupid and needs outside magical forces to compel him to do the right thing. People make their own decisions and consequences follow all the time. With or with out a god. If you need a carrot of heaven dangled in your face in order to do the right thing. Religion is the least of your problems.

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As for hope: I`ll take doctors as an example. Most doctors my family goes to are dedicated Christians. They see death and suffering every day. What drives them to do what they do? The knowledge that it all happens in some greater scheme of things. Naive? Perhaps. But it gives them what they need to carry on with their work and that helps the community in the end.

That does not prove the existence of a god. It just proves that even college educated people are just as willing to believe as the uneducated. Also, do you think all doctors believe as this? More than likely, no. They are in turn motivated by a paycheck and willingness to help(as Thomas and I are pointing out) because it is the right thing to do. Not so they are rewarded some where down the road.

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As for my religion: I don`t know what it is anymore but I will continue defending the principle of religion for the rest of my life. I would appreciate it if you stopped making assumptions about my religion. My religion is based on no single piece of literiture but on my own (very limited) knowledge of the world and what I can deduce from that. I am the firmest believer in the Big Bang there is. Probably a more avid believer than yourself. Here`s the question: Where did it come from? If everything thing in the universe is a consequence of a cause, why should the universe as a whole be any different?

Well I would appreciate if you are going to enter a discussion about god that you explain your beliefs so that assumptions will not be made (such as the ones I apologized for in advance). As for your theory. I refer you to Thomas' post. Then where did god come from? Did he just magically appear out of thin air? What is his cause?

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As for finding solice in your own morality: is that necessarily a bad thing. Is the hope that you won`t amount to nothing a BAD concept?

No, not a bad concept.

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I can`t see how.

Here is how. Because that solace comes with a price and dogmatic view point of exclusion. People are willing to kill and start wars for that solace. That is based on something they have no proof(see fact) and only believe(see faith).

Quote :

Certainly there are difficulties with religion. We just have to work to resolve them. What more can we do? People WILL continue fighting - be there religion, or not.

Well the earth has been around for say thousands of years. How long have the Jews and Arabs been fighting? Do you see any end in sight? Why do they fight, religion and belief that THEIR god is the right god. In fact, as Thomas pointed out earlier, many of the wars are over religion or have some sort of religious under tones. It is the number one thing that keep's this world down and without it the world would be a better and more prosperous place. Allowing more science and less faith to solve problems that ail us.


Now I know that when age is brought up people cry fowl. But if you think at 16 you have the world figured out, that either makes you incredibly naive, or like every other 16 year old that has ever walked the planet. This not to say that at 32 I have it all figured out because I do not. But my age has allowed me to have more life experiences with the world(or at least America) than you. When I was your age and going to a christian high school I too thought like you. But then I joined the real world unsheltered by dogmatic religious beliefs and able to make my own decisions. I realized that we as humans are capable of incredible highs and incredible lows. But that we all want to do the right thing and help our fellow man. If given the choice, 99% of people would do the right thing and want to help those who are less fortunate. Most because it is right and not for a reward upon death. The other 1%, well that is what prisons are for. You know prison, the place where everyone seems to find god at.

Bidley wrote:

Also, I knew Aaron wouldn't be able to keep away

What can I say. The power of christ compels me.

Nautilus wrote:

Aaron'll jump on me for it, but we don't understand God. We don't know why.

I won't jump on you for it(don't want to get yelled at again ). But I do think that is nothing more than a cop out answer. I told you before. I want concrete answers. Not, well I can't explain it but I will go along with it.