God's existence has nothing to do with Religion. The two are not mutually exclusive. I don't believe a being that has never interacted with me in an observable way is important. Not as important as my heatless fire breathing dragon that's incapable of interacting with matter in my living room is. Excuse me, I need to feed it a load of hot air.



Lets see now; war in Sierra Leone, War in Iraq, Palestinian/Israeli conflict, The Crusades, The Persian Empire, Ancient Greek Empire, the Roman Empire, the Han Empire, etc, etc. All of these from the top of my head were wars fought in the name of their religion. Probably not the real reason, I agree. Religion was just a tool used to condone war. Religion in the hands of those who know how to use it is a powerful weapon, and causes more harm than good.

People will still do fiendish deeds, but without the blessing of the Pope the crusades could not have occurred. Without the blessing of the Gods the Greeks could not have invaded another nation. Without the threat of conversion by the Persian Empire may lives would have been spared. The will of the few would have been there, but not of the many.

My point stands. I gain hope from the knowledge my life is my own choosing. I have faith in man's ability to empathise with others, and their inherent instinct of right and wrong. The world becomes a very bleak place when you believe everyone that lives in it will kill you for the clothes on your back if not for the threat of going to Hell.

Let me give another example; I go to make a sandwich. I could make a cheese sandwich, or a ham sandwich. I choose the Ham. Looking into the past I cannot change the fact I made a Ham sandwich, and certainly from my perspective in time it appears as though I have free will. With God controlling my destiny, this is just an illusion. I would always have made that ham sandwich, and the appearance of free will is just an illusion. Now which is more comforting, the knowledge you cannot change what is going to happen to you or the belief that you can achieve anything?


"No Evidence"

My point exactly. I take evidence supporting one theory over lack of evidence supporting another.

As for Evidence vs. Proof; in case you aren't sure of the difference the former shows support for a particular argument, the latter proves it cannot be to the contrary. Proofs are almost impossible to formulate. We still haven't 'proven' gravity, or how aeroplanes fly, or how nuclear power works.

Nautilus wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

You decide..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Christian_missionaries_in_Africa

The same christian missionaries that use food as trick to convert people to their religion? This does happen you know? They say things like,"If you want this food, you should convert." They did it to the Indians here in America and they do it all over the world, and while it may not be the majority, the fact that it happens at all is disgusting. Ask Ritwik about how it went down in his country.

Also, I am with Will. So he can create the heavens and the earth but refuses to help starving children. What a hell of a guy. I know, I know. Who are we to question and how can we ever think to comprehend his infinite wisdom? Well how come this heathen can figure out it is the right thing to do and god can't?

AarO)))n wrote:

Bright_Eyed wrote:

Quote :

I am not bashing. I am telling the truth. If it hurts so be it.

It figures the kid with the spinning badger penis has to take everything so seriously.

Kid? I think we have crossed this bridge before. It was not a matter of taking it seriously. Just defending my point. This is the Debater Den.

I know we've crossed this bridge, but just because your little box says 35 instead of 18 doesn't give you the right to make rampart generalizations that only further controversy, kiddo.

You defend a generalization. I believe it was somewhere along the lines of Muslims killing people for after-worldly pussy. Because this is what every Muslim ever has done, does, and will do. Do you say 'some Muslims'? Or 'select groups of Muslim extremists'? Nope, every goddamn Muslim is like that, and that is why we, as justified (insert whatever you want to call yourself here), are justified in our opinions, because we are more civilized then those goddamn barbarians and would never do such a thing.

I called bullshit, kiddo. You defended it, calling it the truth. In reality, that's such a small part of the truth, it barely has any honesty about it.

That's defending a position.

Did you just call me a heathen Aaron?

Quote :

So he can create the heavens and the earth but refuses to help starving children. What a hell of a guy. I know, I know. Who are we to question and how can we ever think to comprehend his infinite wisdom? Well how come this heathen can figure out it is the right thing to do and god can't?

Assholes exist. Just because they are assholes doesn't mean they don't think, and talk, and fuck with people. Why should God be different? This doesn't prove he doesn't exist.

Bright_Eyed wrote:

Quote :

So he can create the heavens and the earth but refuses to help starving children. What a hell of a guy. I know, I know. Who are we to question and how can we ever think to comprehend his infinite wisdom? Well how come this heathen can figure out it is the right thing to do and god can't?

Assholes exist. Just because they are assholes doesn't mean they don't think, and talk, and fuck with people. Why should God be different? This doesn't prove he doesn't exist.

Unlikely that the perfect god, the one who created light and darkness, good and bad etc. would be a horrible person. If he is then I find that hilarious and welcome 'eternal damnation'. Religious people are worshipping a twat, that's comical.

Collin: Gottit. God's an asshole.

Rosalind wrote:

Collin: Gottit. God's an asshole.

Well he did give you your face.

Bright_Eyed wrote:

AarO)))n wrote:

Bright_Eyed wrote:

Quote :

I am not bashing. I am telling the truth. If it hurts so be it.

It figures the kid with the spinning badger penis has to take everything so seriously.

Kid? I think we have crossed this bridge before. It was not a matter of taking it seriously. Just defending my point. This is the Debater Den.

I know we've crossed this bridge, but just because your little box says 35 instead of 18 doesn't give you the right to make rampart generalizations that only further controversy, kiddo.

You defend a generalization. I believe it was somewhere along the lines of Muslims killing people for after-worldly pussy. Because this is what every Muslim ever has done, does, and will do. Do you say 'some Muslims'? Or 'select groups of Muslim extremists'? Nope, every goddamn Muslim is like that, and that is why we, as justified (insert whatever you want to call yourself here), are justified in our opinions, because we are more civilized then those goddamn barbarians and would never do such a thing.

I called bullshit, kiddo. You defended it, calling it the truth. In reality, that's such a small part of the truth, it barely has any honesty about it.

That's defending a position.

I did say "radical Muslims". Next time don't assume, read it and try and comprehend. So are you making a generalization that all Muslims are radical Muslims? Who is this "we" you speak of? Didn't "we" invade a country and kill millions of the people to try and find fake weapons in a country that had nothing to do with 9-11, though they were both used to justify the war.

My "box" say's 32. The reason it does not say 18 is because I am not. Why would I lie about my age? What would I have to gain? And wouldn't I be found out once people became my FB friend? But "kiddo" is just part of your continued posturing. Unless of course you are begging people to give you music recs in MH(see"Help a n00b out, It like charity" thread). Then suddenly you are the most humble guy that ever existed. You are free to call me what ever you wish. But when you do you just reveal how much of a scared, insecure little "kiddo" you really are.

Monkzum wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

Collin: Gottit. God's an asshole.

Well he did give you your face.

And your success with the women.

Bright_Eyed wrote:

Quote :

So he can create the heavens and the earth but refuses to help starving children. What a hell of a guy. I know, I know. Who are we to question and how can we ever think to comprehend his infinite wisdom? Well how come this heathen can figure out it is the right thing to do and god can't?

Assholes exist. Just because they are assholes doesn't mean they don't think, and talk, and fuck with people. Why should God be different? This doesn't prove he doesn't exist.

I didn't use that as an example to prove his non-existence. I was just making a point about what an asshole he is, if he existed. You really should try reading all of the posts before making assumption.

Monkzum wrote:

Christoff:

There doesn't need to be a meaning for our existence. Why do I have an appendix? Is it for god to get some lulz out of it when it needs to be taken out? Evolution is a pretty simple idea. Something happens randomly and then it carries on that way, taking the good stuff and dumping the bad stuff.

Ricard:

Then god is a useless prick. He created the heavens and the earth right? So why can't he feed a billion starving people? It should be a piece of cake.

Christoff (again): You use sarcasm every time someone provides an argument that you can't counter, it's a pretty poor way of showing that you have no come back.

Firstly, I use sarcasm to show my complete lack of understanding for others` lack of understanding for a simple concept. I`ll gladly concede when I`m wrong. What, do you think, do I get from insisting on my opinions being correct if I know they`re not?

And, as far as I know, the appendix is a remnant of an organ that used to serve a purpose and is slowly decaying. The fact that it is useless now, doesn`t mean it has always been useless.

Christoff Odendaal wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Christoff:

There doesn't need to be a meaning for our existence. Why do I have an appendix? Is it for god to get some lulz out of it when it needs to be taken out? Evolution is a pretty simple idea. Something happens randomly and then it carries on that way, taking the good stuff and dumping the bad stuff.

Ricard:

Then god is a useless prick. He created the heavens and the earth right? So why can't he feed a billion starving people? It should be a piece of cake.

Christoff (again): You use sarcasm every time someone provides an argument that you can't counter, it's a pretty poor way of showing that you have no come back.

Firstly, I use sarcasm to show my complete lack of understanding for others` lack of understanding for a simple concept. I`ll gladly concede when I`m wrong. What, do you think, do I get from insisting on my opinions being correct if I know they`re not?

And, as far as I know, the appendix is a remnant of an organ that used to serve a purpose and is slowly decaying. The fact that it is useless now, doesn`t mean it has always been useless.

Missing the point of the appendix point. It means either god got our design wrong when he made us, or he never made us to begin with (evolution).

AarO)))n wrote:

So you are saying because the world is made up of "oafs" this is why we invented god and religion. Ok, I will go with that. But that doesn't change anything. I don't believe that at all. I think there are universal truths. One of which is that killing people is wrong. You don't need a god or a "holy book" to figure that out. The fear of punishment comes from our laws and government. Not god. While there are some that don't care many more do. What a shitty way to go through life. Thinking that the majority of your fellow man is stupid and needs outside magical forces to compel him to do the right thing. People make their own decisions and consequences follow all the time. With or with out a god. If you need a carrot of heaven dangled in your face in order to do the right thing. Religion is the least of your problems.

That`s good. You think universal truths are the root of morality. For you, maybe. Let me make myself clear: If you can find motivation to do good deeds in your own being - fantastic. I`m in no way urging you to become religious. I try to do the right thing, myself, because I feel it is right. Here`s the grim truth, though: in communist Russia (SECULAR state) more than 50 million people died because of the selfish decisions of a few men and the brutality of those who enforced them. Because of the Nazi party (SECULAR party) more than 50 million people died because of greed and predjudice. Religion played no part in these events as they were of a decidedly SECULAR persuasion. Universal truths of morality?

I`ll take another example, for good measure: My father knew a farmer who lived a few kilometres from where we live now. This man and his wife were murdered by a group of men. They were not driven to this by religion. They were driven to it by greed. In South Africa over 130 000 white farmers were killed since 1994. They were not murdered for religion. And don`t you DARE tell me they were mutilated and massacred because they were all racists. I know people, good people, who did no one any harm, who were murdered by barbaric men. Not for God - for MONEY and POWER. So much for your "universal truths". I may be 16, but I have seen what I needed to, to see that man is selfish and evil. Or, at least, the circumstances of the modern world drive him to be so.

AarO)))n wrote:

That does not prove the existence of a god. It just proves that even college educated people are just as willing to believe as the uneducated. Also, do you think all doctors believe as this? More than likely, no. They are in turn motivated by a paycheck and willingness to help(as Thomas and I are pointing out) because it is the right thing to do. Not so they are rewarded some where down the road.

I was not trying to prove the existance of God. Just that many people cannot cold and calculatedly do what`s right. Even educated people, as you said, want, nay NEED, motivation and acknowledgement of a higher power to keep on keeping on. If it makes them feel their actions are more worthwhile, why do you feel the need to attack that?

AarO)))n wrote:

Well I would appreciate if you are going to enter a discussion about god that you explain your beliefs so that assumptions will not be made (such as the ones I apologized for in advance). As for your theory. I refer you to Thomas' post. Then where did god come from? Did he just magically appear out of thin air? What is his cause?

I`m not 100% sure what my beliefs are, to be quite honest. I believe in the freedom of everyone to choose as they please. My beliefs actually go no further than: god exists and it`s nice to be nice.

As for my theory: I`m afraid this is where my theory breaks down. Where does God come from. That is question I cannot answer. I am certain God must exist, though. If not, why would we be here? I take this very forum as a metaphor: you see the forum but you don`t know who made it. You know it`s here because you are actively a part of it. Do you assume it just happens to be here? Do you accept that because you do not know who created it, that it came with the internet? Do you accept that the universe is an intrinsic part of reality, or, like me, that there has to be something bigger? What that "bigger thing" is, is beyond me. I make it God, as I picture the one who created us as one who can also observe us. I`m still working this stuff out. I AM only 16, after all. Sounds ridiculous? Probably. It makes me feel better, so let it be.

AarO)))n wrote:

Here is how. Because that solace comes with a price and dogmatic view point of exclusion. People are willing to kill and start wars for that solace. That is based on something they have no proof(see fact) and only believe(see faith).

Frankly, killing for something you truly believe is real, i.e. God, and killing for something that you don`t know is real, i.e. money, is not very different. It just goes on to prove that people have no "inner morality". If you can kill for money under the banner of religion, you`ll find a reason to do so otherwise.

AarO)))n wrote:

Well the earth has been around for say thousands of years. How long have the Jews and Arabs been fighting? Do you see any end in sight? Why do they fight, religion and belief that THEIR god is the right god. In fact, as Thomas pointed out earlier, many of the wars are over religion or have some sort of religious under tones. It is the number one thing that keep's this world down and without it the world would be a better and more prosperous place. Allowing more science and less faith to solve problems that ail us.

Your logic is atrocious, in my humble opinion. All the positives of religion must also be take into account. There are countless examples of religion improving someone`s life and those of the people around him. The university in my home town, for example. The new dean of the university grew up in an area renowned for it`s crime and gang culture. There was no possibility of this man escaping from the clutches of these circumstances. You know what led him to become the intellectual and the success that he is today? You guesses it: religion. If it weren`t for religion, he`d just be another sad case of a boy lost in the abyss of the Cape Flatt gang scene.

If you look at it from my point of view: the world would be a anarchic, violent mess if not for the order religion provides. If you are so certain of your opinion: try and tell the next man who hold a gun to your head that he should be living a different life, due to the "inner truths" and "universal morality" that exist withing all of us. I`ll gladly stop believing in any god if he changes his mind on robbing/murdering you. Say, you know what might convince him to change his ways?

AarO)))n wrote:

Now I know that when age is brought up people cry fowl. But if you think at 16 you have the world figured out, that either makes you incredibly naive, or like every other 16 year old that has ever walked the planet. This not to say that at 32 I have it all figured out because I do not. But my age has allowed me to have more life experiences with the world(or at least America) than you. When I was your age and going to a christian high school I too thought like you. But then I joined the real world unsheltered by dogmatic religious beliefs and able to make my own decisions. I realized that we as humans are capable of incredible highs and incredible lows. But that we all want to do the right thing and help our fellow man. If given the choice, 99% of people would do the right thing and want to help those who are less fortunate. Most because it is right and not for a reward upon death. The other 1%, well that is what prisons are for. You know prison, the place where everyone seems to find god at.

Your deluded belief that 99% of the world is good and my age have nothing to do with reality. All I know is Atilla the Hun, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Mao, Genghis Khan, Al Capone, the French revolutionaries (you know, they killed over 10 000 innocent people for "freedom"), Robert Mugabe etc. don`t really give the impression that people are "inertly good".

I`ll try and explain one more time and then I`m done with this. Let`s imagine, shall we: You`re an atheist. You get an opportunity to make a million dollars. You just have to rip off an old retired couple, causing them ti have to make due with very little money. No-one will know and you face no punishment as you have the perfect way of concealing your involvement. Live life to the fullest, right? The money will definately help achieve that and the old couple are almost dead, anyway.

You get the same opportunuty and you`re a Christian. You are faced with a choice: get rich and live a great life, but then proceed to burn in hell for all eternity. Or go on with what you can earn honestly and get the reward of eternal bliss.

You can HONESTLY not still insist that religion has no advantages for society. I`m done arguing with you now. It`s getting too personal and I`m going abroad tomorrow anyway so...

Rosalind wrote:

Christoff Odendaal wrote:

Monkzum wrote:

Christoff:

There doesn't need to be a meaning for our existence. Why do I have an appendix? Is it for god to get some lulz out of it when it needs to be taken out? Evolution is a pretty simple idea. Something happens randomly and then it carries on that way, taking the good stuff and dumping the bad stuff.

Ricard:

Then god is a useless prick. He created the heavens and the earth right? So why can't he feed a billion starving people? It should be a piece of cake.

Christoff (again): You use sarcasm every time someone provides an argument that you can't counter, it's a pretty poor way of showing that you have no come back.

Firstly, I use sarcasm to show my complete lack of understanding for others` lack of understanding for a simple concept. I`ll gladly concede when I`m wrong. What, do you think, do I get from insisting on my opinions being correct if I know they`re not?

And, as far as I know, the appendix is a remnant of an organ that used to serve a purpose and is slowly decaying. The fact that it is useless now, doesn`t mean it has always been useless.

Missing the point of the appendix point. It means either god got our design wrong when he made us, or he never made us to begin with (evolution).

Or (hold on to your hats, people, this idea is going to rock the very foundations of the evolution-religion debate) evolution exists and all natural processes take place according to the laws of nature. But...wait for it... God still exists. Seriously, did you not see this reply coming?

Rosalind wrote:

God's existence has nothing to do with Religion. The two are not mutually exclusive. I don't believe a being that has never interacted with me in an observable way is important. Not as important as my heatless fire breathing dragon that's incapable of interacting with matter in my living room is. Excuse me, I need to feed it a load of hot air.



Lets see now; war in Sierra Leone, War in Iraq, Palestinian/Israeli conflict, The Crusades, The Persian Empire, Ancient Greek Empire, the Roman Empire, the Han Empire, etc, etc. All of these from the top of my head were wars fought in the name of their religion. Probably not the real reason, I agree. Religion was just a tool used to condone war. Religion in the hands of those who know how to use it is a powerful weapon, and causes more harm than good.

People will still do fiendish deeds, but without the blessing of the Pope the crusades could not have occurred. Without the blessing of the Gods the Greeks could not have invaded another nation. Without the threat of conversion by the Persian Empire may lives would have been spared. The will of the few would have been there, but not of the many.

My point stands. I gain hope from the knowledge my life is my own choosing. I have faith in man's ability to empathise with others, and their inherent instinct of right and wrong. The world becomes a very bleak place when you believe everyone that lives in it will kill you for the clothes on your back if not for the threat of going to Hell.

Let me give another example; I go to make a sandwich. I could make a cheese sandwich, or a ham sandwich. I choose the Ham. Looking into the past I cannot change the fact I made a Ham sandwich, and certainly from my perspective in time it appears as though I have free will. With God controlling my destiny, this is just an illusion. I would always have made that ham sandwich, and the appearance of free will is just an illusion. Now which is more comforting, the knowledge you cannot change what is going to happen to you or the belief that you can achieve anything?


"No Evidence"

My point exactly. I take evidence supporting one theory over lack of evidence supporting another.

As for Evidence vs. Proof; in case you aren't sure of the difference the former shows support for a particular argument, the latter proves it cannot be to the contrary. Proofs are almost impossible to formulate. We still haven't 'proven' gravity, or how aeroplanes fly, or how nuclear power works.

Well, this gets a bit metaphysical at times. Looking back in the past, your ham sandwhich was made and would always have been made. The fact that you choose it doesn`t prove that you had some control over what would eventually happen. You choose but the choices you will reflect on in the future are inavertable. You ARE going to make them. If you choose to believe you have control over that, that`s fine. As long as the future is still the future you have the choice. When it goes through the hourglass of time it becomes past and unchangeble, you will realise you really never had a choice. You were bound to make that deicision. In a parallel universe, maybe, you didn`t make it. But in this one you have only one future.

Here`s an interesting fact, though: THERE WERE OTHER WARS BESIDES RELIGIOUS ONES. The two biggest wars in history, for example, had nothing to do with religion.

Holy shit! There's a fucking dragon in my basement!

People kill in the name of God, and people kill for other reasons. Religion isn't inherently evil, it is a tool used by those who wish to do evil to bring others to his cause. And yeah, people do good from their religion for the selfish reasons to get themselves into heaven (paraphrasing from your argument) so in a roundabout way good does occur, but was it really god that did those actions? Or did they?

"If you look at it from my point of view: the world would be an anarchic, violent mess if not for the order religion provides. If you are so certain of your opinion"

I find this incredibly pessimistic view of society. I said it before and I'll say it again; most people in this world have morals. You quote all those rulers but what about the revolutionaries? What of Che Guevara? Florence Nightingale? What of Fidel Castro? Gandhi? Malcolm X? Martin Luther King? Rosa Parks? Or one you should know well, Nelson Mandela? Even your own example of Mao Zedong isn't strictly true - look at where China is now, thanks to his radical reforms. He turned a poverty-stricken nation of peasants into a budding world superpower.

Your argument says that religion replaces morality; well it shouldn't. If we cut out religion we'd be able to resolve 90% of the wars of the world, and those with the power and willing to commit atrocities will have one less weapon in their arsenal. Religion is like every nation having a stockpile of nuclear warheads, each nation afraid to fire theirs for retaliation, embittered by the fear of their enemy. Whilst an uneasy peace may exist, (or in the case of war, no truce at all) wouldn't it be better if nobody had any nukes at all?

I didn't see that argument coming as they contradict each other. At least you seem to have the Christian stand point, but fair enough. All you're really saying to me is 'the foundations of religion is all bollocks,' a statement I wouldn't really disagree with.

P.S. I can find who made the forum code if you really want


No, you don't get it. Belief in God means there never was a choice. Think of it like a timeline of your entire life. The future is already filled in. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't. It may seem like a choice, but thats just an illusion. The choice will already have been made. THIS is pre-destiny, or fate. This is what the existence of some divine being means; it means the illusion of free will but the ultimate absence of it. Everything I will ever do is already in my future and I am a mere passenger on my own life.

Also, if You're referring to WWI and WWII, I disagree they were the 'biggest' wars. I'd say in the 220 year conquest of the Persian Empire a higher proportion of the population was killed, or when the British Empire conquered 25% of the globe more died.

The glory days eh Bawden? *Smokes pipe*

Rosalind wrote:

If we cut out religion we'd be able to resolve 90% of the wars of the world

While that would be nice, if people didn't fight over religion, they'd fight over something else.

Bidley wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

If we cut out religion we'd be able to resolve 90% of the wars of the world

While that would be nice, if people didn't fight over religion, they'd fight over something else.

Women fight over me

Bidley wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

If we cut out religion we'd be able to resolve 90% of the wars of the world

While that would be nice, if people didn't fight over religion, they'd fight over something else.

True, but on a far smaller scale. People would have a much harder time getting mass support for their actions.

Monkzum wrote:

Bidley wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

If we cut out religion we'd be able to resolve 90% of the wars of the world

While that would be nice, if people didn't fight over religion, they'd fight over something else.

Women fight over me

Ah yes, I can see it now.

"Sandy: Mandy, you drew the short straw. Looks like you have to take will to the dance.
Mandy: Best two out of three?"

Rosalind wrote:

Bidley wrote:

Rosalind wrote:

If we cut out religion we'd be able to resolve 90% of the wars of the world

While that would be nice, if people didn't fight over religion, they'd fight over something else.

True, but on a far smaller scale. People would have a much harder time getting mass support for their actions.

Would the Israelies still be fighting the Palestinians (No I can't spell)?

There'd be conflicts sure but less and they'd probably have greater meaning other than 'god told me this was my land'.

Also incase anyone is trying to use the holocaust as evidence against religion:

I went to an interesting talk today about the holocaust and the nazis and yes, there was a lot of anti-semitism in Germany at the time but it was more likely that the holocaust was for economic purposes rather than racial hate. I just thought that was interesting, probably has nothing to do with this but thought i'd shove that in there.



And who the fuck, in our beautiful land, is called either Sandy or Mandy.

Christoff Odendaal wrote:

Quote :

That`s good. You think universal truths are the root of morality. For you, maybe. Let me make myself clear: If you can find motivation to do good deeds in your own being - fantastic. I`m in no way urging you to become religious. I try to do the right thing, myself, because I feel it is right. Here`s the grim truth, though: in communist Russia (SECULAR state) more than 50 million people died because of the selfish decisions of a few men and the brutality of those who enforced them. Because of the Nazi party (SECULAR party) more than 50 million people died because of greed and predjudice. Religion played no part in these events as they were of a decidedly SECULAR persuasion. Universal truths of morality?

Religion played no part in the nazis killing 50 million Jew's? OK. Yet using your same logic. Religious men enslaved Black's for the better part of the beginning of America. In fact even today in the southern states of America you can find openly racist people who call themselves christians. Hell, the KKK was a christian organization. You gave two examples, though big one I will give you, but only two. So Stalin and Hitler are the only examples of man and his evil ways. I think the good far out number the bad.

Quote :

I`ll take another example, for good measure: My father knew a farmer who lived a few kilometres from where we live now. This man and his wife were murdered by a group of men. They were not driven to this by religion. They were driven to it by greed. In South Africa over 130 000 white farmers were killed since 1994. They were not murdered for religion. And don`t you DARE tell me they were mutilated and massacred because they were all racists. I know people, good people, who did no one any harm, who were murdered by barbaric men. Not for God - for MONEY and POWER. So much for your "universal truths". I may be 16, but I have seen what I needed to, to see that man is selfish and evil. Or, at least, the circumstances of the modern world drive him to be so.

I don't think they were all racist. But to pretend that a Black uprising took place in South Africa and it had NOTHING to do with race is ridiculous. While some that were killed may not have been. Perhaps they paid for those who did or for doing nothing about it. Does it make it right? Probably not. But do you think that they had no idea what they were doing was wrong? Of course they did. but they justified it to themselves how ever they saw fit. So with out your parents and your religion would you have not known that killing is wrong? Just because you fail to practice and follow theses universal truths does not mean they don not exist. Just like god right?

Quote :

I was not trying to prove the existance of God. Just that many people cannot cold and calculatedly do what`s right. Even educated people, as you said, want, nay NEED, motivation and acknowledgement of a higher power to keep on keeping on. If it makes them feel their actions are more worthwhile, why do you feel the need to attack that?

Want and need, yes. But not all. Also, I am not attacking anyone. If they are helping people, no matter their motivation in some cases, I am all for it. But not ALL doctors are like the ones you know.

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I`m not 100% sure what my beliefs are, to be quite honest. I believe in the freedom of everyone to choose as they please. My beliefs actually go no further than: god exists and it`s nice to be nice.

As for my theory: I`m afraid this is where my theory breaks down. Where does God come from. That is question I cannot answer. I am certain God must exist, though. If not, why would we be here? I take this very forum as a metaphor: you see the forum but you don`t know who made it. You know it`s here because you are actively a part of it. Do you assume it just happens to be here? Do you accept that because you do not know who created it, that it came with the internet? Do you accept that the universe is an intrinsic part of reality, or, like me, that there has to be something bigger? What that "bigger thing" is, is beyond me. I make it God, as I picture the one who created us as one who can also observe us. I`m still working this stuff out. I AM only 16, after all. Sounds ridiculous? Probably.

Why does there HAVE to be a reason to our existence? Isn't simply existing enough? Are you really that self centered that you feel your life must have purpose? Why don't you make your own? Why follow the preordained one given to you by a god you can not see or hear and hopefully is the right one to get you where you want to go when you die? As for the forum. Thomas created it. So should a worship him as a god(though I am he would enjoy it )?

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It makes me feel better, so let it be.

If it makes you feel better great. But you are the one who came in here spouting your theories. So when proven wrong do get mad and say leave me alone.

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Frankly, killing for something you truly believe is real, i.e. God, and killing for something that you don`t know is real, i.e. money, is not very different. It just goes on to prove that people have no "inner morality". If you can kill for money under the banner of religion, you`ll find a reason to do so otherwise.

I agree. But you say this as though every human thinks this way. They simply do not. Not because of religion. Because of a moral compass that we are all born with. You are lumpping humanity as a whole to justify why you need a god to exist. If you are unable to control your actions with out a god so be it. But MANY do.

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Your logic is atrocious, in my humble opinion. All the positives of religion must also be take into account. There are countless examples of religion improving someone`s life and those of the people around him. The university in my home town, for example. The new dean of the university grew up in an area renowned for it`s crime and gang culture. There was no possibility of this man escaping from the clutches of these circumstances. You know what led him to become the intellectual and the success that he is today? You guesses it: religion. If it weren`t for religion, he`d just be another sad case of a boy lost in the abyss of the Cape Flatt gang scene.

Improving your life huh. i give you this quote from someone here in the forum,"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." Just because it is working for you does not make it right. I am sure many a nazi thought this holocaust thing was working out pretty good for them. I doubt the jew, cripples, Russians, old, and gypsies thought so. As for your dean. Was he really that weak of a man that he could not have done it on his own? I don't think so. But if you insist that with out religion he could not have done it. Then perhaps the priest should be the dean. Seeing as none of his accomplishments are through his own works. Also, what made him turn to religion? Was it because his inner morality told him that they were a better way to live then the one he had? I would say so. So there for he controlled it all along.

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If you look at it from my point of view: the world would be a anarchic, violent mess if not for the order religion provides. If you are so certain of your opinion: try and tell the next man who hold a gun to your head that he should be living a different life, due to the "inner truths" and "universal morality" that exist withing all of us. I`ll gladly stop believing in any god if he changes his mind on robbing/murdering you. Say, you know what might convince him to change his ways?

I throw it back at you. Tell him jesus loves him and that god will forgive him if he stops. I think the result will be the same. Seeing as men of the cloth and other religious leaders have been murdered many times over. Ask the last Pope. There he is, the living symbol of the Catholic religion, and someone still took a shot at him. Where was your god then? Why was that man not stopped by the sight of the living embodiment of religion? Because he made his own moral choice. He new very well what he was about to do and the consequences that came with it. Again just because you don't follow it doesn't mean they don't exist. Just like how you see god right?

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Your deluded belief that 99% of the world is good and my age have nothing to do with reality. All I know is Atilla the Hun, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Mao, Genghis Khan, Al Capone, the French revolutionaries (you know, they killed over 10 000 innocent people for "freedom"), Robert Mugabe etc. don`t really give the impression that people are "inertly good".

Why is my belief diluted but yours is fact? So you base all of humanity on 7 people? That is one hell of grading curve.

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I`ll try and explain one more time and then I`m done with this. Let`s imagine, shall we: You`re an atheist. You get an opportunity to make a million dollars. You just have to rip off an old retired couple, causing them ti have to make due with very little money. No-one will know and you face no punishment as you have the perfect way of concealing your involvement. Live life to the fullest, right? The money will definately help achieve that and the old couple are almost dead, anyway.

Let's also pretend that aliens land, and they take away all the evidence and turn my millions in to billions. Or any other thing that you can make up to try and prove your point. Mean while I will stay based in reality.

You get the same opportunuty and you`re a Christian. You are faced with a choice: get rich and live a great life, but then proceed to burn in hell for all eternity. Or go on with what you can earn honestly and get the reward of eternal bliss.

So are you implying that I as a non-believer would do this crime even if I could get away with this? If so you could not be more wrong. I would not do it because the guilt would eat me up because I know that stealing is wrong. Not because of religion but because I have had stuff stolen and understand the affects along with an understanding that it is wrong. Also, christians stealing money. Yeah that's never happened. We have never seen preachers bilk their followers out of millions of dollars. Where were their beliefs then? Also, why not do the right thing because it is the right thing? Not because of what an invisible man might do to you. But if you are unable to do so. Then by all means carry on doing it so that you don't become like the millions of other horrible, moralless heathens, you think infest the earth.

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You can HONESTLY not still insist that religion has no advantages for society.

The disadvantages FAR out weigh the advantages.